RO Fatally Shot at NY USPSA Match

[olstyn]

And it’s perfectly f.i.n.e. that they rest those unloaded shotguns muzzle down on top of their feet. Why would you think that’s dangerous? it’s so funny that you think that’s dangerous, Duelist. SMH.

Some of those guys even lace a muzzle resting device into their bootlace to make this very safe practice even easier.

But G-d forbid the safety nazi (with an inordinate amount of influence over how the range is run) from the shotgun range drive by an action pistol match and see something he disagrees with, or even worse, sees a picture from a match with someone moving while shooting.

Dude has chased more than one fun match out. Saying anything about shotgun safety practices in his presence might get you ejected. Yelled at, at the least.

Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I mean, sure, with a break action gun, I guess there's no real risk as long as the gun is open because you can both see that it's empty and it's incapable of firing while open, but that doesn't mean that the muzzle isn't placed such that it would quite literally obliterate your foot if it was able to discharge, and it certainly creates a VERY bad habit should a different style of gun ever be used. Is it really so terribly difficult to actually hold a shotgun? I mean, I know they're not made of feathers, but they're also not absurdly heavy...

[GJM]

Here is the question I always ask myself — when I get the crap kicked out of me at a USPSA match by some guy with zero tactical knowledge, who would not know Doc’s list from a shopping list, do I feel better or worse about myself?

[cheby]

Here is the question I always ask myself — when I get the crap kicked out of me at a USPSA match by some guy with zero tactical knowledge, who would not know Doc’s list from a shopping list, do I feel better or worse about myself?

Those are two different sets of skills as we know. Learning tactics is much easier than learning how to shoot well BTW.

[Clusterfrack]

Those are two different sets of skills as we know. Learning tactics is much easier than learning how to shoot well BTW.

I used to think so, but after working with some very skilled professionals I don’t anymore. Learning to fight with a gun is at least as difficult. Happy to talk offline about that.

[HCM]

Those are two different sets of skills as we know. Learning tactics is much easier than learning how to shoot well BTW.

I used to think so, but after working with some very skilled professionals I don’t anymore. Learning to fight with a gun is at least as difficult. Happy to talk offline about that.

Very much this ^^^.

The first tactics instructor class I attended, the lead instructor set our expectations thus: "When I first got on the team, I attended and 80 hour SWAT school and had more questions about tactics at the end of it than when I started."

[cheby]

Very much this ^^^.

The first tactics instructor class I attended, the lead instructor set our expectations thus: "When I first got on the team, I attended and 80 hour SWAT school and had more questions about tactics at the end of it than when I started."

Perhaps I am wrong. And how do we really measure that?

But… 80 hours sounds like absolutely nothing to develop any meaningful skill. ZILCH. The guys who are serious about shooting dry fire every day, shoot several times a week and spend easily 2000 hours a year doing that. For many years. Probably way more taking into consideration reading about it and analyzing it. It is a second fucking job consuming all the resources and time. Some can get better enough to compete on a high level. Most cannot. It takes years (5 years minimum) to get there assuming we overcome age limitation and practice the right stuff. 80 hours with all due respect is nothing

[YVK]

Again, I would really like to find out "what happened" in this tragic case, rather than go off to develop some half-baked solution to a non-existent problem. But I feel terrible for the families involved.

This is what was posted on Enos as a clarification

The gun was a CZ with hammer down after make ready. That TYPICALLY says Production/CO. Gun missed holster and fell onto concrete indoor range floor with hammer striking the floor causing the gun to fire upwards striking the RO.

I've seen a lot of stuff at ranges and I've done stupid shit myself. This year alone was rich, seeing a dude hanging an AR on his tac mole (tactical training stuff, no games) by the trigger and safety at the same time, driving 3-4 rounds into the floor, and another dude shooting 2 inches off his foot because his game holster can trigger a shot if you wiggle a gun in. I've seen enough but I've never seen "gun missing the holster", especially those dropped and offset buckets we use for games. Firing pin block would've prevented that but it is a 100% shooter's error.

[HCM]

Perhaps I am wrong. And how do we really measure that?

But… 80 hours sounds like absolutely nothing to develop any meaningful skill. ZILCH. The guys who are serious about shooting dry fire every day, shoot several times a week and spend easily 2000 hours a year doing that. For many years. Probably way more taking into consideration reading about it and analyzing it. It is a second fucking job consuming all the resources and time. Some can get better enough to compete on a high level. Most cannot. It takes years (5 years minimum) to get there assuming we overcome age limitation and practice the right stuff. 80 hours with all due respect is nothing

You are wrong in terms of your original comment.

What is your back ground in tactics ?

Action shooting sports require developing three primary skill sets - shooting (which can be a rabbit hole in itself) , moving, and in some games stage planning which is has some similarity to individual tactics, though a one sided version.

Actual tactics requires shooting, moving and individual tactics but also requires communicating, group tactics (coordinating with 2 or more) and accounting for the actions of an opposing will.

Kind of like practicing hitting bags and pads isn't the same as sparring.

As for the 80 hours thing.. that was the point. 80 hours was just enough to get somewhere in between conscious incompetence and conscious competence i.e. realize you have more questions than answers. You get the answers (and better questions) by putting in the work aka practice.

In this post you are conflating training with practice. You don't develop skills in training, you develop them in practice.

The 80 hours is where you are exposed to things for you to go practice. After an 80 hour school, most LE SWAT guys get 3 to 5 days a month of "training" after that but most of that is actually practice, not training. There are somethings in tactics you can practice on your own and somethings you can't. Full time, higher level groups will train and practice full time when not doing real world operations.

Same with shooting. Unless you are GJM, you don't spend 2,000 hours (or even 80 hours) with Ben Steoger, Steve Anderson or at Manny Bragg working on USPSA skills. You spend 16 or 24 hours training with them then you go practice what you learned in class to develop your skills.

[olstyn]

This is what was posted on Enos as a clarification

The gun was a CZ with hammer down after make ready. That TYPICALLY says Production/CO. Gun missed holster and fell onto concrete indoor range floor with hammer striking the floor causing the gun to fire upwards striking the RO.

[SIZE=3]

So probably a case of the shooter not looking the gun into the holster, and somebody else died as a result. That's going to be tough to live with.

[Rocky Racoon]

Of course you think it's disingenuous, as you change what I said to suit whatever argument you're trying to have. I never said the rule was enforceable, as a matter of fact I sort of pointed that out in my previous post.

I get where you're going with this and don't really disagree, but I'm not going to engage in a continuous circular argument with you where the salient points keep changing. Cheers.

One thing I know is that rarely does anyone concede a point on the internet. And you are no exception. You arent going to concede that you were wrong about the Sig and other non-drop safe pistols in IDPA. And I don’t guess you are going to concede anything about the usefulness or lack thereof of the IDPA rule book. That’s fine.

And I quoted you. I didn’t change anything you wrote.

Bottom line - if the report on Benos is accurate, (hammer down CZ dropped on the ground), the same accident could have happened in IDPA just as it happened in USPSA.

No need to come back and tell me you are done.