RO Fatally Shot at NY USPSA Match

[BigT]

This is a tragedy and I feel for the family of the deceased.

It's also a man bites dog story. In that its so rare as to be news worthy. Millions of rounds are fired every year around the world by people running around at full tilt with guns that aren't drop safe. The stars aligned really badly this one time to make this happen. But its in fact only this one time. We don't need to change entire sports because of this. We don't need new rules books and we don't need to change all our guns. More people die playing golf.

Lets all read the cover of the Hitchhikers Guide and DON'T PANIC!

[RJ]

I guess I'm still getting my head wrapped around the concept of a sport allowing non-drop safe guns.

Obviously I'm new to firearms late in life. But what I did not expect to understand is that this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?

Again, I would really like to find out "what happened" in this tragic case, rather than go off to develop some half-baked solution to a non-existent problem. But I feel terrible for the families involved.

[fatdog]

this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?...

Yes, in open and limited, lim10 since day one. And as I cited earlier, the culture in the sport around creating light performance triggers and guns that are easy to shoot, has for decades lead to people removing or disabling the mechanisms that were designed to make guns drop safe, and putting in place action jobs that themselves might make the sear/hammer mechanism susceptible to failing if dropped on a hard surface.

While I no longer shoot limited or open, and sold those off, I personally did or had prominent well known racegun gunsmiths do all of the above to my various open and limited guns over the years.

While there may be rules in production division that are supposed to prevent the removal of things like trigger/striker block safeties everybody knows there are some competitors who do. Nobody inspects guns at a club match.

[GJM]

Shooting sports, including USPSA, can be dangerous. While deaths at USPSA matches are uncommon, we have had people killed or injured by ricochets, bullets passing through gaps in berms, grabbing (drop safe) pistols that were falling, and accidental discharges when moving or holstering. Most matches start with a briefing that says shooting can be a dangerous sport, and death or serious injury are possible. That said, deaths from crashes to or from the match, or from heart attacks during the match are surely way more common than deaths like what happened in NY at the match.

[olstyn]

I guess I'm still getting my head wrapped around the concept of a sport allowing non-drop safe guns.

Obviously I'm new to firearms late in life. But what I did not expect to understand is that this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?

Basically, yeah. The vast majority of the time, it's not a problem. I think I've seen a grand total of one dropped gun in the last ten or so years, and it didn't go off. Similarly, I can recall only two unintended discharges, and one gun that doubled (this resulted in the shooter withdrawing from the rest of the match and getting it repaired before the next one.) None of these incidents resulted in any injuries.

The incident which started this thread is scary as fuck, and awful for everyone involved, but it's a freak occurrence. I agree with you that it would be very good to find the root [mechanical] cause. I really like the suggestion someone else made earlier in the thread regarding requiring competitors to actually look at their holsters when holstering; I believe that doing things that way would eliminate a large % of the chance of this occurring.

[littlejerry]

I guess I'm still getting my head wrapped around the concept of a sport allowing non-drop safe guns.

Obviously I'm new to firearms late in life. But what I did not expect to understand is that this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?

Again, I would really like to find out "what happened" in this tragic case, rather than go off to develop some half-baked solution to a non-existent problem. But I feel terrible for the families involved.

How many rifles and shotguns do you think are drop safe in all of the 3Gun, 2Gun, and PRS matches around the country?

Running around with loaded guns is dangerous. As is pretty much anything in life worth doing. This is obviously a tragedy, and we should try to prevent it from happening again, but no amount of rule-making will eliminate the possibility of a fatality in a sport that involves running around with loaded guns.

[ranger]

I am waiting for the first "I want to speak to your manager" post...........

[P.E. Kelley]

This is a tragedy and I feel for the family of the deceased.

It's also a man bites dog story. In that its so rare as to be news worthy. Millions of rounds are fired every year around the world by people running around at full tilt with guns that aren't drop safe. The stars aligned really badly this one time to make this happen. But its in fact only this one time. We don't need to change entire sports because of this. We don't need new rules books and we don't need to change all our guns. More people die playing golf.

Lets all read the cover of the Hitchhikers Guide and DON'T PANIC!

THIS^^^^ Thank you BigT!

Tragic yes! But this level of "we need to do something" is getting out of hand.

Oh a gun dropped...and it went off! I am confident that happens more at home more than at the range, let lone
at a USPSA or IDPA shooting match!

Having shot some international events, IPSC does check guns, but they do not take them apart to inspect. (I would not like them to either!)

For sure we have some "homesmiths" altering guns incorrectly making them less safe.
We have people doing the same to their cars, homes and their BODIES! i.e. (get off the couch you fat bastard and put out that cancer stick)

Risk is out there.

Let us refrain from a wholesale request to revamp our action shooting sports. We have a fantastic safety record.

I WILL add that NEW SHOOTERS to the action shooting sports need to be "checked" for basic gun handling skills.

Back in the day (when I started) I had to show basic proficiency at my first IPSC match. I was already a Master
IHMSA shooter, but even at that I was pleased to see this kind of procedure.

Sadly it seems to be a club by club thing.

IPSC Canada requires "Black Badge" certification before you can shoot. Loved shooting with my Canuck friends and
loved the professionalism they showed in their IPSC events.

[RJ]

I agree with you that it would be very good to find the root [mechanical] cause. I really like the suggestion someone else made earlier in the thread regarding requiring competitors to actually look at their holsters when holstering; I believe that doing things that way would eliminate a large % of the chance of this occurring.

I agree 100% with that.

I will say it was a surprise to me that USPSA has a history of running guns that are not drop safe, whether they be stock pistols, pistols modified to adjust or eliminate safety devices, or by modifications to guns by competitors seeking an advantage. Apparently this is in the rulebook (at least not explicitly banned) for Open, L and L10. I feel better educated now.

I'll certainly adjust how I participate in a stage accordingly, within the current USPSA ruleset. For instance, I will be less complacent about where I am relative to the RO and shooter, in a bay, during the load and make ready, that's for sure. I'll probably also make sure I have a TQ/IFAK "on me" from now on (generally in range bag).

I will be the poster-child for "slow, careful holster", looking the gun in all the way. I can add a hard break, mentally, to the reholster process, just before carefully guiding the gun in.

I will buy an SCD for my game gun (I have one on my carry Glock, but not on the gun I use for USPSA). Maybe there are other ideas that I can come up with, to make reholstering more positive and under control.(*)

As to this incident, I think I'm repeating myself, so i will shut up at this point: a death in any dangerous sport or occupation, whether in Aviation, Motor Sport, or Shooting, should be investigated, so we identify the root cause. I would certainly hope all competitors in USPSA would encourage finding out the facts in this case. I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree with that (I sure hope not). But If any changes were developed, such that the risk of a future similar incident is reduced, providing enjoyment of the sport by all is not unreasonably impacted, I would hope they would be adopted. Obviously everybody has their own level of acceptable risk; I'll manage mine, and I would not presume to tell anyone else how to manage theirs.

EDIT TO ADD

* I was fiddling around with my USPSA rig this morning and it occurred to me I could add some contrast by hitting the top edges of the holster with silver sharpie. Intent is to add a bit of additional visibility as I look down on the holster action at a match:

[Zincwarrior]

Yes, in open and limited, lim10 since day one. And as I cited earlier, the culture in the sport around creating light performance triggers and guns that are easy to shoot, has for decades lead to people removing or disabling the mechanisms that were designed to make guns drop safe, and putting in place action jobs that themselves might make the sear/hammer mechanism susceptible to failing if dropped on a hard surface.

While I no longer shoot limited or open, and sold those off, I personally did or had prominent well known racegun gunsmiths do all of the above to my various open and limited guns over the years.

While there may be rules in production division that are supposed to prevent the removal of things like trigger/striker block safeties everybody knows there are some competitors who do. Nobody inspects guns at a club match.

For those not in open or familiar with that, why would someone do that? What is the benefit? This is not a criticism, but a question.
For reference I shoot Production with a Sig X Five. What would be the benefit of removing a safety?