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Thread: RO Fatally Shot at NY USPSA Match

  1. #21
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Racoon View Post
    I havenít seen the same evolution. Go back further though and the old timers (they were young then) did some wilder stuff like crawling through tunnels and over walls.





    Letís donít.

    Is yet another IDPA vs USPSA debate going to help? Competitors in both drop pistols, lighten triggers and shorten travel and disable safeties. People run in both games.

    I welcome a discussion of safety measures or lack thereof in USPSA. But until you convince me the same couldnt have happened in IDPA, then donít make it about USPSA vs IDPA.

    EDIT - maybe I misunderstood the ďevolution.Ē I do think the top competitors have evolved and move faster and run harder than 10-15 years ago when Angus or someone like him could place high. But there have always been stages that had a running requirement.
    IDPA specifically disallows the disabling of safety mechanisms, so while it could happen, it would be because an individual has decided to ignore the rules and made the conscious choice to violate those same rules.

    8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions
    The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed in the rulebook.
    A. Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels.
    B. Add-on weights. This includes (but is not limited to) weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine
    wells, weighted grips, and weighted grip plugs.
    C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, BUG and CDP divisions
    with length restrictions.
    D. Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).
    E. Disconnecting or disabling of any safety device including (but not limited to): manual safeties, grip safeties, firing
    pin, striker, and hammer blocking safeties, 1911 series 80 firing pin safeties, 1911 Swartz safeties. 1911 series 80 frames may be used with series 70 slides or vice versa. Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.

    F. Lights mounted on firearms.
    G. Rail mounted lasers and bolt-on trigger guard mounted lasers are not allowed.
    Men freely believe that which they desire.
    Julius Caesar

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
    IDPA specifically disallows the disabling of safety mechanisms, so while it could happen, it would be because an individual has decided to ignore the rules and made the conscious choice to violate those same rules.

    8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions
    The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed in the rulebook.
    A. Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels.
    B. Add-on weights. This includes (but is not limited to) weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine
    wells, weighted grips, and weighted grip plugs.
    C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, BUG and CDP divisions
    with length restrictions.
    D. Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).
    E. Disconnecting or disabling of any safety device including (but not limited to): manual safeties, grip safeties, firing
    pin, striker, and hammer blocking safeties, 1911 series 80 firing pin safeties, 1911 Swartz safeties. 1911 series 80 frames may be used with series 70 slides or vice versa. Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.

    F. Lights mounted on firearms.
    G. Rail mounted lasers and bolt-on trigger guard mounted lasers are not allowed.
    You are assuming that the only way a pistol used in IDPA competition wouldn't be drop safe is if someone disabled or disconnected a safety. I wouldn't make that assumption.

    (Not to mention - what's the point of a rule if it's just the honor system? IDPA isn't checking. Which begs the question if it's a rule but isn't enforced or checked, is it just there for CYA purposes?)

  3. #23
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Racoon View Post
    You are assuming that the only way a pistol used in IDPA competition wouldn't be drop safe is if someone disabled or disconnected a safety. I wouldn't make that assumption.

    (Not to mention - what's the point of a rule if it's just the honor system? IDPA isn't checking. Which begs the question if it's a rule but isn't enforced or checked, is it just there for CYA purposes?)
    Yeah, I guess some guy could show up with his not drop safe pistol, what modern pistol would that be besides the Sig P320 which has been recalled and upgraded?

    Which shooting organizations make it mandatory to disassemble and check the internals of the participants' firearms prior to allowing them to compete? Do they hire competent gunsmiths to verify the proper tolerances? Isn't it disingenuous to point out that IDPA uses their rules for CYA while leaving out every other shooting sport in the USA which does exactly the same thing? Participation in organized sports of any sort requires a certain amount of integrity, both on the part of the competitor and the organization.
    Men freely believe that which they desire.
    Julius Caesar

  4. #24
    Wag more, Bark less RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    It's not that far from me. I've not shot in the local USPSA as I'm just getting my handguns out of FFL storage. I used to shoot IDPA but it's not in Erie County but Rochester area. There is indoor USPSA here. However, I'm a little concerned that the USPSA guns can be unsafe.
    Obviously I'm not an expert, but the Apr '20 USPSA rulebook specifically mentions safety devices in Production, Appendix D.4:

    21.1: "ALL Factory safety mechanisms, whether internal or external, must remain functional."
    22: "Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited."
    22.1: "External and externally operated safety mechanisms must remain operable."


    This language appears to be also in Appendix D.7,CO. It doesn't seem to appear in Open, Limited, or Limited 10. I would be curious what some of ya'll more experienced shooters (I've done a meagre 14 matches, life time) think about what percentage of competitors guns in USPSA are drop safe. For my own safe, I sure as hell hope it's 100.

    But at any rate, I would like to see the "what happened" in NY, so as to make an intelligent assessment on how to prevent this horrible event from ever happening again.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught.
    ó J. C. Watts

  5. #25
    Site Supporter JCS's Avatar
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    So are CZ shadows drop safe? Or is the speculation that it was modified?
    Diligentia Vis Celeritas

    SDG

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by JCS View Post
    So are CZ shadows drop safe? Or is the speculation that it was modified?
    I don't think Shadows have a firing pin block. Many of the other CZs do have a firing pin block.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by BN View Post
    I don't think Shadows have a firing pin block. Many of the other CZs do have a firing pin block.
    Correct, the Shadows do not have a firing pin block. The CZ 75B and BD do have FPB.

  8. #28
    Hobbyist JAD's Avatar
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    In a 1911, a firing pin block prevents the gun from firing when it is dropped on its muzzle. I donít know from Shadows, but I would be more interested in hammer sear interface and half cock behavior.

  9. #29
    Lowly Production C-Class olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trader View Post
    Correct, the Shadows do not have a firing pin block. The CZ 75B and BD do have FPB.
    So if a Shadow/Shadow 2 falls directly on its hammer, there would be at least some chance that it would discharge, no?

  10. #30
    Site Supporter
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    Interesting. A friend of mine has a Shadow. Do any agencies or armed forces use them?

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