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Thread: RO Fatally Shot at NY USPSA Match

  1. #11
    AR-14 Enthusiast fatdog's Avatar
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    This is very sad. Over the years I have personally seen both a raced up 1911 and a 2011 gun discharge upon being dropped. Fortunately with the round impacting the berm in both cases. In both those cases the competitor was running and tripped on something on the stage, gun went flying, in one case at the Alabama sectional it was spinning...yikes.

    The sport allows people to remove almost every safety device in limited and open. In the 90's and the first decade of this century my guns were missing the series 80 safety plunger (Para and Colt), had the grip safety pinned, and the trigger sear geometry and springs necessary to have a 3-3.5# trigger like everybody else. I always had a Ti firing pin and extra power firing pin spring and told myself it was enough. Not sure I was right. People have long done the same things to Glocks (Lighting strike kits, ZEV, etc. etc.) in the name of lighter triggers and performance.

    The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.
    Last edited by fatdog; 11-09-2020 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #12
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    That 'track and field' aspect was a deterrent to my participation as I am more into stroll across the lawn mode nowadays. Let's have another IDPA vs. USPSA debate. Might take us away from the current rage fest about you know who.

  3. #13
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    That is tragic. I would welcome a safety review of USPSA. I'm guessing it is far safer than rock climbing or paragliding, but there are ways to address some of the biggest risks.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.
    Almost all the really scary things I've seen have been during holstering or drawing. If we eliminated "speed holstering" and extremely light triggers, I'm guessing ND's would be reduced significantly.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  4. #14
    Not sure if correct, but earlier I saw mention on Enos of a CZ being dropped when the competitor was making ready and returning the pistol to the holster.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #15
    Lowly Production C-Class olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    If we eliminated "speed holstering" and extremely light triggers, I'm guessing ND's would be reduced significantly.
    100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Not sure if correct, but earlier I saw mention on Enos of a CZ being dropped when the competitor was making ready and returning the pistol to the holster.
    I saw that as well.


    100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise.
    I've told many a shooter to seriously slow down and look at their holster.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by olstyn View Post
    100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise.
    Instead of shooter load and make ready I would change it to something along the lines of.

    “Shooter if you are ready load”

    Mandatory pause for loading of the pistol

    “Shooter if your pistol is loaded you may now safely holster”

    I think having a pause and having to wait for a verbal command to holster would be the most effective way of slowling people down and helping them to holster safely while they have “match jitters”.
    "I don't know if it is a placebo effect or not, but I have a growing feeling of well being that comes directly from my instinctual survival drive deep in my belly center”

  8. #18
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    Instead of shooter load and make ready I would change it to something along the lines of.

    “Shooter if you are ready load”

    Mandatory pause for loading of the pistol

    “Shooter if your pistol is loaded you may now safely holster”

    I think having a pause and having to wait for a verbal command to holster would be the most effective way of slowling people down and helping them to holster safely while they have “match jitters”.
    Good idea. One could also make it a match DQ for holstering faster than a count of "One One Thousand, Two One Thousand, Three One Thousand". I agree that it would be somewhat subjective, but obvious "slam-holster" behavior could be called. RO's already have to make subjective safe-angle violations.

    Drop safety is a harder one to address. I plan to do an experiment with my Shadow2s using empty cases and Federal primers.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post

    The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.
    Somewhat reluctantly but I have to agree. I do think that the athletic part is great and I would not shoot the matches if it was gone. We have enough sedate or stationary shooting disciplines for those who like that. That said, my own gun drop was just because of that, losing footing while pushing foot speed. I am yet to see anything happen during holstering.

    Unless this ends up in a successful lawsuit against USPSA, which I doubt, I dont see rules changing.

    One of my Shadows still has extended pin and light spring. Gonna change to standard tonight.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post

    The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.
    I haven’t seen the same evolution. Go back further though and the old timers (they were young then) did some wilder stuff like crawling through tunnels and over walls.



    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    That 'track and field' aspect was a deterrent to my participation as I am more into stroll across the lawn mode nowadays. Let's have another IDPA vs. USPSA debate. Might take us away from the current rage fest about you know who.
    Let’s don’t.

    Is yet another IDPA vs USPSA debate going to help? Competitors in both drop pistols, lighten triggers and shorten travel and disable safeties. People run in both games.

    I welcome a discussion of safety measures or lack thereof in USPSA. But until you convince me the same couldnt have happened in IDPA, then don’t make it about USPSA vs IDPA.

    EDIT - maybe I misunderstood the “evolution.” I do think the top competitors have evolved and move faster and run harder than 10-15 years ago when Angus or someone like him could place high. But there have always been stages that had a running requirement.
    Last edited by Rocky Racoon; 11-09-2020 at 02:57 PM.

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