RO Fatally Shot at NY USPSA Match

[Zincwarrior]

Yep, "show me the reference" is a thing, and a lot of folks either forget that, or like to feign having forgotten that because it suits their ability to Karen things. Chant about the spirit of a given rule all one wants, the LETTER of it is specified in a published item that's been through a vetting process. It may not have come down off of Mt Sinai on stone tablets, but there's also not a lot of wiggle room for "...but if Jethro don't like it, he can do whatever the fuck he wants and expect folks to jump."

Some hucklebuck RO doesn't like the 180 rule, and wants to add an extra 10-15* to it...that's not being safe, that's indulging in a desire to control other people, cleverly disguised as risk-mitigation. Those folks can EATADIK, it's no different than when the codgers didn't want AIWB folks to compete, despite divisions with clearly-written "no restrictions" specifications in terms of equipment placement. Feel about it however one wants to feel, the reference clearly defines where the line is drawn.

180* is 180*. If they wanted the limit to be 185*, that's what would be written in the rulebook; it's not. Folks need to find a way to deal with that, and it's not by power-tripping by citing "Safety..." as uttered in some melodramatic, hushed, reverent tone.

The rule says the shooter must not break the 180 correct? Thats not the issue.
The issue is that camera dude is unsafely close to that 180 at a location near a target. Camera dude is not subject to the rules. The shooter, RO, and range are however, subject to legal liability which trumps any rule, and RO is under no requirement that keeps him from just stopping until they go away. RO is not being paid. If you require the RO to expose themselves to increased liability there is no reason for the RO to continue.

Also, why are you making this an issue? Camera guy is in an unsafe position. Shooter could be Grandmaster Gundog but he could still slip. Camera man could easily reposition slightly or even better welcome themselves to the 21st century and install a nice remote camera to get even better shots.

[JMS]

Camera dude is not subject to the rules.

Camera guy is in an unsafe position.

PARADOX!!

If he's not subject to the rules, then he cannot BE in an unsafe position.

You're doing it, right now: not basing it on the rulebook, but on what you THINK the rules are, or how you'd PREFER they read.

[vcdgrips]

I am mildly amused by the chest puffing going on in this thread re where one would hypothetically stand because they are getting paid to take pictures and 181 is not 180 etc.

I suspect much of this puffing is a byproduct and the cousin of "victim selection" that predators do because you all have sized up the RO and/or MD and have determined you can get away with it.

If I was an RO and and I asked you to move and you did not, I just would not RO the stage until you did. I am not going to yell/scream etc. Life is way too short. I would do this despite the fact that I (and/or the folks I could summon) might be bigger/stronger/faster/more well trained than you and even on a named basis with the officers who would respond to the reported altercation because life is too short.

Having said that, I shoot with a guy in my local clubs. Let's call him Ivan. Ivan is a former Soviet Era Refugee/Vet of 3 armies (USSR/Israel/USA) Ivan is 6'0' tall and 5' 00'' wide shoulders and a 34 inch waist. If Ivan TELLS you to move when he is the RO, you are going to move.

I suspect there are a lot of IVAN types out in the world.

I suspect you who say you will not move think "EAT A D..." a lot louder than you actually say it to anybody remotely fit looking. But hey... if telling a retired 68 y/o guy who is about 5'9, 165 or 365 with a belly, "I am outside the 180 and the shooter will not shoot me because he/she is so good," rock on. Just know that Karma is a serious bitch.

It would also, I suspect, be of great comfort that you were "right" about your interpretation of the rules, as your asked somebody to plug in your motorized wheelchair because you managed to get yourself shot. Odds v Stakes and all that...

Be safe and well.

[Zincwarrior]

PARADOX!!

If he's not subject to the rules, then he cannot BE in an unsafe position.

Thats a logical fallacy.

A cow walks into the bay.
A. The cow is not subject to USPSA rules because: 1) the cow is not a USPSA member; 2) is not participating in the competition; and 3) does not have the legal ability to contract because she's...a cow.

B. However the cow can still be shot if the cow wanders into the shooting area.

Therefor the cow can both be not subject to the rules; and be in an unsafe position.
Here endeth the lesson. And yes I did see a guy serenade said cattle before a match with a trombone. It was epic.

If I was an RO and and I asked you to move and you did not, I just would not RO the stage until you did. I am not going to yell/scream etc. Life is way too short. I would do this despite the fact that I (and/or the folks I could summon) might be bigger/stronger/faster/more well trained than you and even on a named basis with the officers who would respond to the reported altercation because life is too short.

Exactly. Its not difficult for the RO. The RO just stops. If the camera man complains to the MD and the MD says let him, the RO can continue to just..you know...stop. The worst that can happen is the RO gets to go home early and the MD now has a bad reputation among the RO community.

[Casual Friday]

There was a bystander fatality about 20 years ago at a USPSA match in the midwest. The incident was taught as part of the USPSA RO school back when dinosaurs roamed and John Amidon was teaching those schools. The cause was a compromised berm that allowed a round to penetrate, then ricochet and strike an adolescent male who was at the range but not present in that berm in the head, killing him instantly. John taught the incident to emphasize the importance of inspecting the integrity of berms during set up before a match. Brush was concealing the berm defect in that case.

It is indeed rare, and that one was a freakish accident.

Shoutout to everybody who learned about this event from a Forensic Files episode 24 years ago. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1469601/

Also, side note: when I'm getting paid to take pictures, there's nothing more annoying that some "helpful" RO being all "hey you can't stand there" when I'm behind the 180 and the shooter is cool with it.

Plot twist. The shooter is Paul Harrell. Whaddya gonna do now Caleb???

[Clusterfrack]

Its not difficult for the RO. The RO just stops.

Yep. A few years ago, I was ROing a first-time USPSA shooter who claimed all sorts of tactical training. This gentleman moved with his gun held vertically in front of his chin, Charlie's Angels style, almost breaking the vertical 180, with finger hovering just outside the trigger guard. I asked him not to do that after his first stage, and he was argumentative. On another stage, he crowded a wall and bumped his arms. Pretty much instinctually, I reached over his shoulder and grabbed the slide, pushing it forward to keep him from muzzling his head. Then I said "stop", and explained that he was getting a re-shoot, and that another RO would be stepping in because I didn't want to get his brains all over me if he shot himself in the head. I got some crap from him and some other shooters for that, but still think it was the right thing to do at the time.

[jetfire]

Plot twist. The shooter is Paul Harrell. Whaddya gonna do now Caleb???

We all know that would never happen because Paul would never show up a shooting match that would actually test his skills

[Bucky]

PARADOX!!
If he's not subject to the rules, then he cannot BE in an unsafe position.

Huh?

[DDTSGM]

Why don't we all take a moment to pause and send helping thoughts to the family of the RO fatally shot. Seem to have lost focus.

[mmc45414]

Attachment 63117

I do think the GoPro might be a fisheye and making this look a little worse than it is, but I just gotta say I think there is no room for this in a recreational activity. I know motorsports photographers place themselves in dangerous positions in obvious impact zones, and there might be a correlation, but in that case there will be many laps when cars do not crash, in the case of shooting every shooter will be shooting.