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Thread: Side bar conversation: Realistic training vs realism

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    I've shot stationary 3D targets. Just never a moving one while also moving.
    How much time/work are you willing to invest? Do you have someone to help when you shoot?

    Easiest answer - two of the tallest t-posts you can get; four t-post clamps; a joint of pvc pipe with two tees; four pieces of thick rebar or steel rod two feet long; four cheap ratcheting motorcycle tie down straps; a 250 foot roll of mason/surveyor twine; a roll of clothesline cable; a couple of cable clamps and a turnbuckle; a piece of lathe - not furring strips; four binder clamps; zip-ties.

    Build target holder: pvc cut to width of target, solvent weld t to each end - two stubs of pvc solvent welded down - one hole for zip-tie drilled in each stub - hole drilled for mason twine in each end of t the doesn't have stub; cut lathe strip a little longer than target, drill hole in end for zip tie; xip tie lathe strips to pvc stubs, attach target using four binding clamps.

    Place t-posts distance of your run apart. Realistically, with this set-up we are talking 50 to 60 feet max. Drive rebar stakes at a sharp angle (so tie downs don't slip off) approximatel 45 degrees front and rear of each post - get as far out from post as possible within limitations of you straps. Attach tie downs to t-post, use a t-post clamp to limit downward movement, snug tie-downs - don't pull post one way or another.

    Attach end of cable to t-post clamp using cable clamps; slide PVC target holder onto cable - at this point the lathe strips should not yet be attached; attach partially extended turnbuckle to end of cable, SLIGHTLY short of reaching post; stretch cable to reach clamping/attachment point on post - extend the turnbuckle if need be; check tie downs on posts, make sure they are snug, using turnbuckle tighten cable, then re-snug tie downs until posts are straight.

    Place target holder at one end of cable, attach mason twine to end of holder furthest from post at that end; run twine through closed end of a tie-down hook at far end of cable, then attach the twine to the closest end of target holder; run twine back (up range) ensuring the 'pulling' end of the twine is up range of your furthest shooting location; repeat with other side. In this manner you assure that the your helper is always up range when operating the mover.

    Works best with shooter and two pullers, goes without saying you take turns. You could leave everthing but the twine and straps in place if have a remote location, or you own the property.

    I've also seen and old garage door opener with extended tracks used as a mover - short run, about 20-25 feet. Maybe visit a garage door installation company to see if they would let you have some old track and chain.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    However, i'm curious, why is BWC footage showing stoppages and malfunctions during actual events that we aren't seeing in these training evolutions? Or, are we and it's being chocked up to really lousy equipment?
    If you are talking training evolutions with sim gear, we had stoppages galore with our basic students, despite the bores being cleaned after every time they'd been shot.

    I think a big difference between competition/range training (as an example) and an actual encounter is that in competition /range training if you get a sub-optimal grip on the pistol you are more concerned about that than a guy shooting at you.

  3. #23
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    We ran force on force (Sims) evolutions at my old job starting in '95, I can't recall when we started incorporating them at Gunsite. Did FATS, I-CAT in or at our local academy for years. My old org has its own Virtra system. And when I'd gone back to the NG, spent a fair amount of time in the Army's Engagement Skills Training (M4 and rifle squad weapons centric).

    While I've seen plenty of Sims stoppages, they appear to be far more mechanically induced by the design and a tremendous need for regular cleaning - than the referenced stoppages in the original thread.

    I'm not poo-poo'ing the benefits of these training experiences, I was involved in starting them at my old org or proposing, arguing for their adoption there.

    However, i'm curious, why is BWC footage showing stoppages and malfunctions during actual events that we aren't seeing in these training evolutions? Or, are we and it's being chocked up to really lousy equipment?
    That's kind of the known unknown isn't it?

    We had several malfs in OIS over the years but no one had the wit or interest to investigate.

    I think(guess) that they're operator induced by some body alarm reaction factor not seen in training.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    I can attest that it is possible to design some training scenarios, that in the moment result in more actual stress on the trainee than some actual shootings.
    I can't footstomp this hard enough, because it's so so true and it's so misunderstood. For ages we've had this completely incorrect idea in the "firearms community" that the stress of a gunfight was somehow different than the stress of any other life or death situation, or in fact basically any stressful situation. I have a friend who is deathly afraid of public speaking, and her list of symptoms before any public speaking were exactly the same as KevH described as being unique to combat.

    What we have learned over the years from actual science is that your body has one stress response, and that's to dump the aforementioned "oh shit hormones" into your system. What does vary is how much of a hormone dump your brain does, and that's controlled by your familiarity with that stressful situation. That's why you're super nervous for your first blind date, but after 4 months on Tinder it barely raises your blood pressure. Your brain goes "this is familiar, I can deal with it."

    This is why scenario based training (when done well) has proven to be effective at helping people manage stress in life or death situations. It's also tangentially why competition shooting can be an effective stress training trick for people who may not have access to FATS, MILO, or quality force on force training. The brain doesn't like the stress of losing a match, and associates "stressed out while holding a gun in my hand," helping build coping mechanisms for if you need to use a gun in a different kind of stressful situation.

    As a last aside, this is also why I roll my eyes when tactibros have people run 50m sprints or do pushups to "induce stress." Physical strain and psychological stress aren't the same thing, my dude. But enjoy flipping sandbags or whatever.

  5. #25
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    If you are talking training evolutions with sim gear, we had stoppages galore with our basic students, despite the bores being cleaned after every time they'd been shot.

    I think a big difference between competition (as an example) and an actual encounter is that in competition if you get a sub-optimal grip on the pistol you are more concerned about that than a guy shooting at you.
    Dan, I specifically asked about stoppages in actual events - officer involved shootings - that have been captured on BWC footage versus force-on-force scenarios and why we aren't seeing the real world event stoppages occuring there.

    Am not saying competition isn't beneficial, but it's not relevant to the question I asked.

  6. #26
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    I specifically asked about stoppages in actual events - officer involved shootings - that have been captured on BWC footage versus force-on-force scenarios and why we aren't seeing the real world event stoppages occuring there.
    If you look at the big 3 FBI studies on officer murders/assualts, they note that the incidents they studied had weapon malfunctions at a much higher rate than the flat range would predict. I heard the same thing from the folks who ran the NTI - guns puked a lot more when shot under duress. Another friend ran shoothouse exercises for various agencies from the state they were based in. He reported lots more malfunctions than the flat range would predict.

    My guess is shitty grips on polymer frame pistols being pulled from high retention holsters as the main reason. The secondary reason is firing from awkward positions that don't allow the shooter's whole mass to be behind the gun. Again, think polymer framed pistols without any reinforcement. There's probably a reason that the product improved Glocks (M&Ps and P320s) used a metal structure to minimize frame flex.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    I can't footstomp this hard enough, because it's so so true and it's so misunderstood. For ages we've had this completely incorrect idea in the "firearms community" that the stress of a gunfight was somehow different than the stress of any other life or death situation, or in fact basically any stressful situation. I have a friend who is deathly afraid of public speaking, and her list of symptoms before any public speaking were exactly the same as KevH described as being unique to combat.

    What we have learned over the years from actual science is that your body has one stress response, and that's to dump the aforementioned "oh shit hormones" into your system. What does vary is how much of a hormone dump your brain does, and that's controlled by your familiarity with that stressful situation. That's why you're super nervous for your first blind date, but after 4 months on Tinder it barely raises your blood pressure. Your brain goes "this is familiar, I can deal with it."

    This is why scenario based training (when done well) has proven to be effective at helping people manage stress in life or death situations. It's also tangentially why competition shooting can be an effective stress training trick for people who may not have access to FATS, MILO, or quality force on force training. The brain doesn't like the stress of losing a match, and associates "stressed out while holding a gun in my hand," helping build coping mechanisms for if you need to use a gun in a different kind of stressful situation.

    As a last aside, this is also why I roll my eyes when tactibros have people run 50m sprints or do pushups to "induce stress." Physical strain and psychological stress aren't the same thing, my dude. But enjoy flipping sandbags or whatever.
    Dis here.

    The first several months I had in BJJ were basically me hyperventilating and feeling a huge dump of adrenaline that basically ruined my energy levels long before it came time to roll.

    I'd drive to class in my car with a resting HR of 140. It was basically pure stress/fear response. By the time rolling came around, I was tired. Exhausted actually. As the parasympathetic nervous system took over I realized that fear defeated me long before I had locked up with someone.

    I've found BJJ gives me a taste of that stress response, because at some level, I know what's at stake if I lose.

    Not actually.

    Like I don't logically fear that my partner will break my limbs or strangle me to death.

    At least, not a skilled partner.

    If you get a relatively new partner, they'll crank the volume all the way to 11 when they get a submission locked in, and that's why rolling with white belts is the best way to train self defense. There is much less control of the impulse to destroy you. Because the fear is affecting them as well. Amplifying aggression and deadening thoughtful consideration of your health.

    Again though, logically, even in a BJJ tournament, you have no reason to fear death. There are referees, medical personnel, coaches to stop you from being killed or maimed.

    But beneath that logic is the fear all the same.

    It's probably not the same as combat. I wouldn't not know personally. I've never had to fight for my life. But I've definitely been worried about grievous injury more than a few times.

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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    Dan, I specifically asked about stoppages in actual events - officer involved shootings - that have been captured on BWC footage versus force-on-force scenarios and why we aren't seeing the real world event stoppages occuring there.

    Am not saying competition isn't beneficial, but it's not relevant to the question I asked.
    Sorry I was off course.

    I think that one of the things we have to understand in order to make an informed hypothesis is the context of the events we are talking about. Are these officers who have been caught by surprise and, therefore, coming from behind? Or, are these officers who have already prepared with the appropriate force (firearm in this case)?

    One thing that I think is dramatically different between simulations and real-life is the point at which the officer becomes immersed in the event.

    As an example, regardless of how well your scenario is designed, the participant stopping a vehicle while wearing sim gear has an inkling something is going to happen, therefore their preparation has already begun. My experience, during both f-on-f and 'FATS' scenarios is that once the scenario starts it quickly becomes the officers reality, but the officer was somewhat prepared.

    In the case of an officer making his third traffic stop of the day, the situation can be different. He may have been completely caught off-guard, and as I said, coming from behind.

    Additionally, what is the skill level of the officer? Is he attempting a .7 draw when he has only 1.2 skills? Had these officers been involved in f-on-f training that was a close replication of what they were experiencing?

    A lot of unknowns. If I had to name the malfunctions you are talking about, I would choose something like 'situational tolerance stacking malfunctions.'

    Regarding malfunctions with Simunitions weapons - probably 90% of my experience with Simunitions was with student officers - around 250 to 300 a year - and we saw numerous FTEject and FTExtract malfunctions, even with freshly cleaned weapons with those student officers, not so much with in-service officers in my experience.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    I can't footstomp this hard enough, because it's so so true and it's so misunderstood. For ages we've had this completely incorrect idea in the "firearms community" that the stress of a gunfight was somehow different than the stress of any other life or death situation, or in fact basically any stressful situation. I have a friend who is deathly afraid of public speaking, and her list of symptoms before any public speaking were exactly the same as KevH described as being unique to combat.

    What we have learned over the years from actual science is that your body has one stress response, and that's to dump the aforementioned "oh shit hormones" into your system. What does vary is how much of a hormone dump your brain does, and that's controlled by your familiarity with that stressful situation. That's why you're super nervous for your first blind date, but after 4 months on Tinder it barely raises your blood pressure. Your brain goes "this is familiar, I can deal with it."

    This is why scenario based training (when done well) has proven to be effective at helping people manage stress in life or death situations. It's also tangentially why competition shooting can be an effective stress training trick for people who may not have access to FATS, MILO, or quality force on force training. The brain doesn't like the stress of losing a match, and associates "stressed out while holding a gun in my hand," helping build coping mechanisms for if you need to use a gun in a different kind of stressful situation.

    As a last aside, this is also why I roll my eyes when tactibros have people run 50m sprints or do pushups to "induce stress." Physical strain and psychological stress aren't the same thing, my dude. But enjoy flipping sandbags or whatever.
    Agreed. I would argue though that difference between fear-induced physiological response varies dependent upon event.

    The subconscious or conscious fear of death and consequence induced from combat, a car crash, violent sexual assault, or say the events of 9/11, are going to differ based on the magnitude versus other severely stress inducing events. It may be a similar physiological response in terms of symptoms, but the severity of the symptoms may differ greatly...dependent upon the individual and any number of variables.

    SIMS, FATS, Virtra 360, and any of the other force-on-force training tools are great for giving you "a little taste" of that type of stress, but they fall very very short of the real thing no matter how detailed and sever you try to make them. They are useful for teaching "fighting through it" or and "problem solving." I think there is a misconception that they somehow inoculate you to the physiological response and stresses that occur during an actual critical incident. They are great tools, but they are no substitute for properly mentally preparing your people or helping them unwind post event. Over reliance on them as a "cure-all" is a fallacy by trainers and police admin with regards to post-event debrief and analysis.

    One typically doesn't relive SIMS or Virtra in the subconscious expressed through dreams and random thoughts. The real thing has that effect because they are vastly different. Combat varies too. I have a close friend at my department who was a Marine in Iraq in 2003-2006 in combat. He then was involved in an OIS at our agency. He describes the stress and after-effects of the OIS as being vastly different from what he experienced overseas.

    Before I became a cop I had lots of "training" (including late-90's Simmunitions) with much of it focused on at the time was called "combat marksmanship." I had also been in a severe roll-over car accident where I was nearly killed when I was a teenager.

    When I was a newbie cop I was on a call where a cop about thirty feet from me was getting shot at (thankfully only his patrol car was hit) on a court in a densely populated not-so-nice area. It was about 3 am, I could see the muzzle flashes, but none of us felt we had the ability to shoot at the guy (and honestly it happened extremely fast and the guy ran away before we could really start processing a response).

    The physiological response my body felt was akin to the car accident, but somewhat magnified. About ten years later, after experiencing a number of much more severe incidents at work (typically involving guns or cars), I again was on a call where cops near me (but not me) were being shot at. The situation was quite similar to the first one described only this time my own physiological response was quite different with the "oh snap" feelings being much less severe and me feeling much more in control. After debriefing with people smarter than me, this is inoculation (very similar to jetfire's Tinder example). Sometimes it helps our performance and sometimes it causes us other problems (PTSD, TBI, etc.).

    Maybe what I wasn't articulating well enough earlier is that this physiological response we experience in these true life-or-death "OH SNAP!" moments often causes performance issues which frequently manifest themselves in weapons malfunctions. You can have all the range training in the world and have shot all the SIMS and been through all the simulators imaginable and you will still experience them. This is why ingraining weapons clearance and transitions drills to the point where they are mindlessly automatic is so important...much more so than fooling yourself into thinking that simulated exercises equal the real thing. You must accept the fact you likely won't have the perfect grip, you will short stroke your shotgun, you will induce a malfunction, and nothing will go your way. Training for everything to go wrong and being pleasantly surprised when it doesn't is much better and sounder than the reverse.

    Don't create overconfidence by having your guys master a simulator like they would a video game. If simulators worked to inoculate you to real life physiological response we could all ride a gnarly roller-coaster a dozen times and that would inoculate us to a severe car crash, right? We all realize that doesn't work. Why? They both give us a degree of an "oh snap" feeling. The difference is the severity of the physiological response they induce. This variance is tied to how our minds process the fact that one is real and has real consequences and one does not.
    Last edited by KevH; 11-10-2020 at 05:48 PM.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    ...and I'm not by any means saying that SIMS, FATS, Virtra and other scenario-based training isn't important. It's absolutely vital, especially at developing critical decision-making, threat recognition, and building other tactical skills.

    What I am saying is that I've heard too often that it's the instant answer by the training community and police management to fix all problems. Including equipment malfunctions during a critical incident.

    You can't treat the disease if you don't recognize the symptom and prescribe the right medication.
    Last edited by KevH; 11-10-2020 at 06:01 PM.

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