Side bar conversation: Realistic training vs realism

[Lester Polfus]

I can attest that it is possible to design some training scenarios, that in the moment result in more actual stress on the trainee than some actual shootings.

As others have pointed out, the aftermath is quite different.

[Caballoflaco]

Gawd, but I loved Louie. Training under him was a privilege, getting to simply sit and visit with him (and Snake, of course!) was an honor.

He taught me this: If you're a dog owner, save your empty dog food bags.
Cut the open end off evenly, then cut it in half lengthwise and presto, two diy 3D targets.
Bend the frame of a wire coat hanger to support the bag half and poke the hook through the top. Hang it in front of a safe backstop and get to work.

When I had regular access to private property for my range time, I shot up a shit ton of dog food bags. The bags themselves were great targets in that they're usually multicolored with weird patterns and were very useful for helping people learn to shoot center of mass instead of just chasing the damn bullseye.

When I ran bars and nightclubs for a living, I had a nearly unlimited supply of free t-shirts from vendors and with a little effort & tape, you could put a t-shirt over the dog food bag and have a torso & head target.

I made myself a 3-d packing tape target (of myself) for airsoft in the yard when I lived in a house where I had enough privacy to set up and shoot scenarios without the neighbors noticing. The main caveat is you need some paper to attach to scoring zones, but the targets themselves last forever and can be repaired with tape.



A google search of packing tape sculpture should bring up some how-to’s.

[feudist]

I'm lucky to have access to a much better training facility then most and also have private land I can shoot on alone and move around safely. Even with that, I *very* seldom get to shoot a moving target while on the move myself. I don't think I've ever shot a 3D moving target, period. There's definitely limitations and no one thing makes up the totality of a real event.

You can make 3d balloon reaction targets out of boxes. Take a USPSA/IDPA cardboard target and tape to it's back a cardboard box in whatever dimension you want your

stop zone to be:4-6-8-10", Then blow up a balloon and slide it into the box. Tie a string to the knot and hang it up. Take an old long sleeve shirt( dark patterned is best)and stuff the arms with paper

and wrap it around the target(the USPSA target will fill it out nicely).

I stole this idea from the Action Targets from the nineties. But they were very expensive. These will last a couple of sessions easily.

Get a 33 gallon garbage sack and fill it with inflated balloons and have some fun. It's involved but very instructive.

The first time I shot one of these my partner went first. Beep! Bang flop. Huh.

My turn: BEEP! bang...nothing! Bangbangbangbangbang! Panic dump finally drops it. Light goes on in my head. All of my shooting buddies shot it and everyone had

the same reaction. If the target didn't react(and you can't see the bullet's impact on loose cloth-another lesson) the reaction is going cyclic.

Very easily trained out...much better to find out on the range instead of the street.

Note: if you've got a partner then you can string 2 balloons together to make it harder to drop or use different sized balloons and you can do shoot/no shoot scenarios

with simple props.

[BehindBlueI's]

You can make 3d balloon reaction targets out of boxes.

I've shot stationary 3D targets. Just never a moving one while also moving.

[SiriusBlunder]

I've shot stationary 3D targets. Just never a moving one while also moving.

You said you have private land. Have you looked into helium balloons and balloons attached to an RC controlled vehicle?

I got the idea from a show featuring a smaller department SWAT team. They used colored balloons and an RC vehicle for their snipers as it was cheaper than other training options/systems.

[John Hearne]

https://targetsonline.com/index.php?...index&cPath=21

[BehindBlueI's]

You said you have private land. Have you looked into helium balloons and balloons attached to an RC controlled vehicle?

I got the idea from a show featuring a smaller department SWAT team. They used colored balloons and an RC vehicle for their snipers as it was cheaper than other training options/systems.

Hadn't considered it, but it's a neat idea. Maybe a kite, though, helium would get pricey plus I don't want popped balloon debris in my field or trees.

[SiriusBlunder]

Hadn't considered it, but it's a neat idea. Maybe a kite, though, helium would get pricey plus I don't want popped balloon debris in my field or trees.

I never thought of a kite, good idea. If you try it, please let me know how it works out.

IIRC, the SWAT team used the helium balloons for more static "hostage" situation type shots. Don't remember what they used on the RC.

We never used helium, just regular air balloons taped to a thin pole mounted on the RC truck. It was a little messy so definitely a concern, but cleaning up wasn't too bad.

[Erick Gelhaus]

We ran force on force (Sims) evolutions at my old job starting in '95, I can't recall when we started incorporating them at Gunsite. Did FATS, I-CAT in or at our local academy for years. My old org has its own Virtra system. And when I'd gone back to the NG, spent a fair amount of time in the Army's Engagement Skills Training (M4 and rifle squad weapons centric).

While I've seen plenty of Sims stoppages, they appear to be far more mechanically induced by the design and a tremendous need for regular cleaning - than the referenced stoppages in the original thread.

I'm not poo-poo'ing the benefits of these training experiences, I was involved in starting them at my old org or proposing, arguing for their adoption there.

However, i'm curious, why is BWC footage showing stoppages and malfunctions during actual events that we aren't seeing in these training evolutions? Or, are we and it's being chocked up to really lousy equipment?

[Duces Tecum]

Following.