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Thread: Side bar conversation: Realistic training vs realism

  1. #31
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    I heard the same thing from the folks who ran the NTI - guns puked a lot more when shot under duress.
    Just anecdotally for the stress discussion, IIRC at the NTI, I was told that they had one guy after his shoothouse run, turn blue from not breathing. Another was so stressed and 'into it', that they had to gently disarm him as he couldn't come down.

    My reliable Glock 19 puked out at Given's. Bad mag? Changed mag - still screwed. Was it me? Transitioned to a pocket G26 for a total CF performance.

    I'm reading

    Policing the Second Amendment: Guns, Law Enforcement, and the Politics of Race
    Jennifer Carlson

    Standoff: Race, Policing, and a Deadly Assault That Gripped a Nation
    Thompson, Jamie

    They mention the common officer dream of malfunctioning guns. This is a pretty standard anxiety dream. I used and still get an academic failure dream of not getting tenure, losing my position, etc. The dream is in your major life paradigm and how that fails.

    They mention that so many officers had the dream of guns not working, esp. after the rampages like in Florida or Dallas.
    Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; 11-10-2020 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    This is a pretty standard anxiety dream.
    What if officers don't have such dreams? Do you think they having those thoughts at a subconscious level?

  3. #33
    Here’s a few OIS videos with malfunctions, for reference:






  4. #34
    On a couple of those do you think it was a compromised shooting grip with the support hand not offering much help in controlling the pistol?

    What was the outcome of the Miami-Dade incident, do you know?

  5. #35
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    They mention the common officer dream of malfunctioning guns. This is a pretty standard anxiety dream. I used and still get an academic failure dream of not getting tenure, losing my position, etc. The dream is in your major life paradigm and how that fails.

    They mention that so many officers had the dream of guns not working, esp. after the rampages like in Florida or Dallas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    What if officers don't have such dreams? Do you think they having those thoughts at a subconscious level?
    I've mentioned it before, but it bares repeating. I used to have that dream all the time from when I started working for DynCorp. Gun wouldn't work, bullets just ooze out of the barrel, no affect on target. I was told that to "cure" the dream, as soon as it wakes you up immediately replay the dream in your head but this time everything works as it should. You pull the trigger, the guy falls, you win. I don't have that dream any longer, and haven't for years. Or if I do it doesn't wake me up and I don't remember it.

    The funny thing is I almost never have cop dreams. I figured I'd have some dreams about it after my shooting, but I never did. I suspect partly because I avoided anything that would humanize him. I never learned his name, for example. What I do have is Army dreams, and I never did anything of interest in the Army and have been out for two decades. But I'll dream I'm somehow back in the service doing things that are still of no interest and wondering WTF I'm back in the Army.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #36
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post

    They mention the common officer dream of malfunctioning guns. This is a pretty standard anxiety dream. I used and still get an academic failure dream of not getting tenure, losing my position, etc. The dream is in your major life paradigm and how that fails.

    They mention that so many officers had the dream of guns not working, esp. after the rampages like in Florida or Dallas.
    I've never had the gun dream. I typically don't remember my dreams much past waking...except for one. I was one of the first cars on scene to a "mass casualty" drunk driver crash. The drunk was driving a car full of kids (all of whom were injured) and hit a family head on. The mom was instantly decapitated, the dad broken all over (but lived) and the 18 month old in the backseat was deceased in her carseat. Me and a couple other cops performed CPR on that little girl for what felt like an eternity, but to no avail. I later had the pleasure of giving testimony at the drunk driver's murder trial (he is an illegal alien with prior drunk driving convictions...yay California).

    I tried to help that poor little girl in real life one time. I've tried helping her my dreams about 100+ over the years. I've come to accept I'll probably have it until the day I leave this earth.

  7. #37
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    Here’s a few OIS videos with malfunctions, for reference:






    Maybe one of our well known members could reach out to John Correia of Active Self Protection. With all the videos he's viewed he probably has the best info on

    the subject.

  8. #38
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
    So just a couple observations from one of my projects. I was the lead I&T engineer for this system in the UK:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combin...ctical_Trainer

    UK CATT was leveraged from the US Army CATT system. It is based on the IEEE 488 DIS protocol. You basically have a "box" with crew, representing a variety of "actual" Army vehicles; tanks, APCs, etc. We also had "generic" simulators which you could role-assign on the fly that didn't need high physical fidelity, such as AVLBs, Apache helos, etc. Plus virtual units which would also move around the battlefield. We used standard .gov databases like Fort Irwin, the UK, and Germany.

    You could also "guise" or represent yourself as OPFOR, which made things interesting for force on force training. You might be driving a CR2 inside, but you'd "appear" as a T80 to the other team. Or a BMP if you were in a Warrior APC.

    Our system was centered around Bde/Battlegroup level. We had simulations of Challenger 2 MBTs, Warrior IFVs, dismounted infantry, engineers, etc. all in a very large simulator hall (about the size of a football field). One was in Warminster UK on Salisbury Plain, and one was in Sennelager Germany at the British Army barracks near Paderborn. Both were connected via a WAN. We had upwards of 400-500 soldiers training simultaneously/concurrently at each site.

    Each "box" was internally a static representation of the actual vehicle. So the CR2 was pretty much like the inside of the tank.

    Everything we specced was driven by the Training Needs Analysis (TNA).

    It had suggested that training for the loader position was better assigned to a Part Task Trainer, so we had a Driver, a Gunner, and a Commander. The "Loader" was represented by an audio cue of crash/bang of the breech closing and a loader screaming LOADED!!!! (I forgot who that guy was we recorded, but he's famous lol).

    You would generally engage with the hatches shut; we provided all the vision blocks with an E&S visual system and a realistic audio/auditory simulation of gunfire, rounds impacting etc. The "box" didn't move per se. We had a seat shaker for the driver, but the turret basket did not swing aound (we did provide the sound of the electric drive). The gun sights were very true to actual.

    I mention this because you would think perhaps the lack of physical realism, in terms of vibratory or motion, or physical interior, would negatively affect the training. That was not the case.

    During work ups, with real troops serving as test cases, listening to the digital radio traffic as they fought, it was pretty clear they were taking it very seriously; it was literally life or death for them. They'd come out of the box after a four hour engagement literally drenched with sweat, and completely spent.

    After we were declared in service, I remember the Commanding General of 1 UK Armd Div come by to talk to all of us and thank us for the job. I was very proud my system worked so well, and that the guys train with it, screw up and get yelled at in the box, but not on the battlefield, where they could get killed.

    This is an example of what I mean when I say you have to pick the right set of things to focus on in designing the instructional media at the point where you do the TNA. Not "everything" needs to be as realistic as possible to achieve the training.


    *Amusing follow up anecdote.

    We noticed that we were going through replacement gun sight brow-pads at a higher than predicted LSA rate. Our stocks were getting low. We conducted an investigation, and all of the take-off pads had bite marks and chunks missing.

    Bite...marks?! WTF??

    Turns out we'd had a unit of Royal Scots Dragoon Guards through the sim bays. Apparently one of the crew's pastimes to occupy themselves on the phase lines before advancing is...to chew on the browpads. I am not making this up.

    This was not in the TNA.
    Last edited by RJ; 11-11-2020 at 11:53 AM.

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