Let's talk about vetting carry ammo

[DAB]

i chose a gun that others have well tested, Beretta 92. i chose ammo that others have well tested, Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. combine, fire a few shots so i know how it feels, call it a day.

our wonderful military spent a fortune testing and sorting out the 92. our wonderful FBI spent a fortune testing and accepting the Critical Duty 135, including making sure it passed their barrier penetration tests. no point in redoing all that testing from scratch.

if you want to fire lots of rounds thru your gun to assure yourself that it's a good combo, go for it.

[DDTSGM]

I think a leading cause of stoppages with polymer pistols is how you hold them.

Elaborate, please.

I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe. When I was more interested in fast draws, presentations under .55 commonly caused a stoppage for me in Glock pistols. I have also encountered stoppages when not holding the pistol firmly.

With a metal pistol you have weight, but with polymer your grip needs to substitute for weight.

Yes, but certainly not limited to Glocks.

I couldn't get our duty pistols to "limp wrist" malfunction holding it with two fingers like chopsticks and pushing the trigger with a finger on my other hand during T&E.

My experiences put me in the camp of 'it's many things, grip, arms and shoulders working in combination.'

I've tried numerous ways to get auto-pistols to malfunction, gripping at the bottom of the grip, holding the pistol with none of the support fingers on the grip, and so on, with no success.

ETA: when testing function with compromised grip, always use a mag with dummy rounds after the live round in the chamber.

Yet, I've watched numerous student officers experience malfunctions with those same types of pistols - all of which had gone through a complete armorer's take=down and inspection (versus a mere function check) before stepping onto our range.

[GyroF-16]

i chose a gun that others have well tested, Beretta 92. i chose ammo that others have well tested, Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. combine, fire a few shots so i know how it feels, call it a day.

our wonderful military spent a fortune testing and sorting out the 92. our wonderful FBI spent a fortune testing and accepting the Critical Duty 135, including making sure it passed their barrier penetration tests. no point in redoing all that testing from scratch.

if you want to fire lots of rounds thru your gun to assure yourself that it's a good combo, go for it.

That sounds like a good start...
But the long history of the M9 demonstrates the validity of the gun design. It doesn’t tell you whether your sample was manufactured to spec, and whether that particular gun is reliable.
The FBI demonstrated that the Critical Duty 135 gr met recommended standards for penetration and expansion. It doesn’t tell you anything about reliable interaction of the particular cartridges you bought with the combination of the particular pistol and magazines that you have.

So, buying a quality firearm, and quality ammunition is a great starting point. But there is certainly something to be said for validating the combination in your hands before betting your life on it.

[BehindBlueI's]

My experiences put me in the camp of 'it's many things, grip, arms and shoulders working in combination.

I've tried numerous ways to get auto-pistols to malfunction, gripping at the bottom of the grip, holding the pistol with none of the support fingers on the grip, and so on. Yet, I've watched numerous student officers experience malfunctions with those same types of pistols - all of which had gone through a complete armorer's take=down and inspection (versus a mere function check) before stepping onto our range.

I wonder if it's slide drag.

[DDTSGM]

Regarding vetting of pistols - after making sure the pistol functions by firing rounds through it, I'm most concerned with magazines. Here's what suggest with every carry mag using carry ammo:

1) Loads when full from slide lock using slide catch/release;

2) Loads when full from slide lock using overhand;

3) Functions when full after in-battery reload;

4) Functions with one round loaded after out-of-battery reload using slide catch/release;

5) Functions with one round loaded after out-of-battery reload using overhand;

6) Functions with one round loaded after in-battery reload;

7) Tests 4 - 6 also ensure last round lock back on each mag several times.

If you have five carry mags, the above tests take as little as 30 rounds. If you want to do it up good you could add:

- Functions 3 or 4 rounds loaded after in-battery reload;

- Functions with 3 or 4 rounds loaded after out-of-battery reload using slide catch/release;

- Functions with 3 or 4 rounds loaded after out-of-battery reload using overhand.

My thoughts are if a mag functions with full spring compression, and with one-round spring compression, it will function in between.

Additionally, I believe if you carry a pistol, you carry it cleaned and lubed, not with a hundred rounds fired since last cleaning.

[Joe Mac]

I wonder if it's slide drag.

I was just going to post the same thing -- how big are your hands?

I worked with a cop with huge mitts, good shooter, with a proven reliable pistol. He got into a shooting and his Glock stovepiped on the first round... Later at the range he was able to duplicate the malfunction with his sausage thumbs riding the slide, and figured that was likely the problem. Under stress he hadn't felt it.

[DDTSGM]

I wonder if it's slide drag.

You mean from thumbs against slide?

Generally if a student had a malfunction, they were expected to clear it and continue. The instructor would then go over the cause if overt, otherwise discuss probable causes and corrective actions. If it occurred again, generally the instructor would quickly exam the pistol and then fire the pistol to ensure it was functioning properly. If it continued and it wasn't overtly something the shooter was doing, the pistol would go back to the range office and one of us would go through it.

In my experience, in most cases it is the shooter, not the pistol.

Excuse me if I missed the meaning of your response.

[DDTSGM]

I was just going to post the same thing -- how big are your hands?

I worked with a cop with huge mitts, good shooter, with a proven reliable pistol. He got into a shooting and his Glock stovepiped on the first round... Later at the range he was able to duplicate the malfunction with his sausage thumbs riding the slide, and figured that was likely the problem. Under stress he hadn't felt it.

I guess my post wasn't clear - wasn't talking about myself. I was trying to make the point that my experiences were that pistols function properly when test-fired with compromised grips. Yet, somehow folks do things that induce stoppages (or the dreaded Glock BTF) and I generally believe it is a combination of factors.

I also edited my initial post to add this safety caution: when testing function with compromised grip, always use a mag with dummy rounds after the live round in the chamber.

[lwt16]

My son bought a 19X the other day. Took it out and he said he got malfunctions aplenty. I’m a Glock armorer so I checked it out and fired it myself without issues.

Asked him to show me his grip.



We went a couple of hours ago and once he moved that thumb the gun ran fine.

Regards.

[BehindBlueI's]

You mean from thumbs against slide?

Yes.