Levergun reliability, or not...

[jlw]

My "Social Levergun" class has been around since 2014 or so. I've seen plenty of leverguns on the range. Chris Baker attended the class several years ago, and I concur with everything he says in the following video. The one thing that I would add is that they heat up extremely quickly.

I have a recent production 336 youth model with a 16" barrel and 5-round mag tube. Five rounds fired in quick tempo is enough to make it uncomfortable to touch. 10-rounds and it is hot enough to burn. Obviously, you won't experience this in a deer/hog stand, but it must be taken into account for any sort of "social" context.

Forget about matching a pistol caliber levergun up with a wheelgun and running the same ammo. Simply put the notion out of your mind. It is nigh on to impossible to find a round that perform as desired in both firearms ballistically, and the PCC leverguns are finicky as to OAL of the cartridge and the shape of the bullet. I have an 1894 that will feed flat point .357s, but it will not feed round nose .38s, and for flat point .38s, you have to have it up in a level firing position.

[jlw]

Here is a followup video from Chris in which he compares .357 and .44 mag PCC leverguns. Note what he fines ballistically regarding penetration and expansion.

[Robinson]

When I was shooting .357 lever guns I stuck with 158gr JSP rounds exclusively. They were effective on varmints without blowing up and could also be used for larger game.

[Wheeler]

Forget about matching a pistol caliber levergun up with a wheelgun and running the same ammo. Simply put the notion out of your mind. It is nigh on to impossible to find a round that perform as desired in both firearms ballistically, and the PCC leverguns are finicky as to OAL of the cartridge and the shape of the bullet.

I've been preaching this for years. The notion sounds great. I mean two guns that share the same ammo, what could be more convenient? It makes perfect sense until you start trying to get peak performance out of your carbine using the ammo that works well in your revolver. Yeah, the ammo usually performs a little better out of the long gun than out of the short but, it's nowhere near the upper end of the potential spectrum.

[jlw]

I've been preaching this for years. The notion sounds great. I mean two guns that share the same ammo, what could be more convenient? It makes perfect sense until you start trying to get peak performance out of your carbine using the ammo that works well in your revolver. Yeah, the ammo usually performs a little better out of the long gun than out of the short but, it's nowhere near the upper end of the potential spectrum.

In the frontier days of cast lead bullets, it made sense. It does not apply well in the days of jacketed/bonded hollow points. As Chris's test showed, the increased velocity from the carbine barrel may prevent expansion.

[Wheeler]

In the frontier days of cast lead bullets, it made sense. It does not apply well in the days of jacketed/bonded hollow points. As Chris's test showed, the increased velocity from the carbine barrel may prevent expansion.

Chris' tests were somewhat limited in the scope of ammunition used, which is completely understandable given the current scarcity of ammunition. The days of lead bullets are still around for use in the .357 Mag and a 158 grain JSP still does pretty well for medium game at rifle velocities with fairly consistent expansion. PCCs of any type are a compromise compared to an actual rifle caliber however, that doesn't mean they aren't effective. We both know a guy who's son dropped a whitetail at 125 yards with a single shot .357 Mag rifle using commercial ammo, to cite at least one anecdote.

Unfortunately the industry and market has somewhat neutered the cartridge in the interests of selling ammo suitable for small J frames. The same applies to the .44 Mag to a lesser degree. I would be curious to see if the current interest in semi-auto PCCs on the competitive side of things will lead towards defensive 9mm ammo suitable for carbine velocities.

[fatdog]

You don't know hot until you run (an original design 1860 model) Henry, with black powder, in a cowboy action match, in the summer, on the clock, ten rounds. Leather glove on the left hand mandatory...new definition of too hot to hold but you have to...

[Malamute]

FWIW, thew Marlins havent been as functionally reliable as the Winchester types in my limited use. Ive had one older 1894 357 and several 1894 44s in the Marlins as well as several 30-30s (336). All had weird little quirks or just didnt feed all that great with various loads. The 357 had what I believe is called the Marlin Jam. Just locked up, I think tried to double feed? it was in the 1980s, i dont recall exactly. I never knew why, and never really had confidence in it afterwards. I believe one of the 30-30s also had a similar problem, as well as a weird issue with the mag tube creeping forward enough to hang up the rim of a shell and stop feeding. All the screws seemed to be snug and in place. i loosened them up pushed the tube back in place, snugged them up, it didnt do it again, but I didnt keep it long after that. It didnt look possible for it to happen with the limited amount of movement apparent, but it did. I pretty much lost interest in Marlins a long time ago, in large part to just not having confidence in them being as reliable compared to other options.

I havent paid much attention to what loads I shoot in the Browning 92 44 mag, it works pretty well with everything but the overly long Lyman 429421 Keith bullet in magnum cases, which is very definitely over length for normal specs. That bullet works fine in 44 spl cases however. Lately its been getting 10 grs Unique w/ 200 gr XTP I think it is. Previously it mostly was shot with 9 grs Unique w/ 200 gr RNFP cast bullets, maybe 2K or so rds? I dont shoot it much but its always worked fine. The mag spring got wimpy after being left loaded most of the previous 20 or so years, I put a new Winchester 94 mag spring in it and its been good since.

Winchester 94s in 30-30 do get quite hot rather quickly. Theyve also been some of the most functionally reliable firearms Ive owned. Ive only used Mausers a relatively small amount but have had more functional problems with mausers than Winchester 94s. The pre-64s are made a little better, pre-war better yet. Ive messed with a couple angle ejects some. Other than many very sharp and rough edges, they seem to work OK in minimal use, but I like the scope mounting setup in them with the Leupold bases and low rings. Ive had a couple dozen or so Winchester 94s over time, an all time favorite for me. Ive replaced the stamped carriers (lifters) when i got a gun with one in it, the forged/cast/whatever the later ones are used to be cheap and easy to get.

If any of them are hard to load when partially depleted, polishing the front end of the back of the loading gate seems to take care of it. Theres zero reason to accept a gun that cant be easily loaded or topped off without resorting to half loading rounds to keep the gate from closing. It should load slick and easy no matter what, every round fully inserted. If they dont they should be fixed, not messed around with and use half measure to get them to work.

[peterb]

How are the Winchester 1892s as pistol-caliber rifles?

[jlw]

The 357 had what I believe is called the Marlin Jam. Just locked up, I think tried to double feed?

The "Marlin Jam" is caused by a groove being worn into the carrier from metal rubbing on metal during working off the action. Eventually, it will allow two rounds to slip out onto the carrier. This is made worse by people who run the guns with brute force rather than finesse.

The only fix is to replace the carrier when it becomes worn. Supposedly, some of the SASS guys are welding up the carriers, but I don't have any first hand experience with this.

While the Winchester action doesn't have this problem, Marlin kept being Marlin long after Winchester quit being Winchester.