Levergun reliability, or not...

[JTMcC]

Videos such as this suffer from the usage of readily available ammo because the vast majority of viewers are going to purchase commonly available ammunition, usually ammo marked for self defense. I’ve been down this rabbit hole with .357 and eventually came to the conclusion to find a load that works extremely well out of the carbine and one that works well out of the pistol. If I have to swap ammo I’m confident that the bullets will still poke holes where I aim them.

I understand your point about "casual" shooters using what the local store has in stock. But THAT customer is probably not on this forum?, so I'm talking about folks who will research, find, and use an appropriate bullet for their likely range of targets.
And it's not a huge chore, even for non handloaders. The 240 & 300 .429 XTP is loaded by a number of mainstream ammo makers. The Swift A-frame less so, but still more than one source for factory loaded ammo.

When you add in the large number of people who are satisfied with the terminal performance of lead SWC's and WFN, it's a very easy choice for those cats.

The 3rd thing, is people who are content with bullet construction that acts like a Hard cast (or a wadcutter) out of their revolver but expands more out of their carbine, while still providing the wanted level of penetration out of either gun. Thinking some specific JSP's here.

So there's a lot too it, add large(r) animals into the mix and the parameters tilt a bit. Just my take, but I think there are more people carrying "non AR carbines", who have a concern with predators/animals than there are carrying a pistol caliber lever gun "solely" for defense against humans.

Either way, it's an interesting topic, and quest, for those willing to take time to search out appropriate bullet construction for a wide range of velocities. I really like roving the mountains with a revolver and a 5.5LB carbine that use interchangable ammo.

[Rex G]

So what is the definition of "social levergun"? Is it for self-defense, just for plinking/competition, or hunting with just a few rounds shot over a period of time?

And I see the problems listed in this thread with a lever action rifle.........the problems either with the firearm itself or ammo sensitivity, OAL or bullet design. So with these stated problems, why would one use a lever action for self-defense? I have a Marlin in 44 magnum and a Winchester .357 AE. I like them both. The Marlin is a real thumper. A friend of mine has a Navy Arms octagon barrel in .357. Shooting (from a rest) .38s in that firearm was like shooting .22s.

So I guess I am asking, "When, where, and how do you use your lever action rifle? I use mine for plinking at 50 yards or less. I don't hunt so that option isn't in play. For self-defense there are certainly better options available.

“Social” is a polite way of saying “antipersonnel.” One talked about social rifles, in the Eighties. Then, the term faded away, until its recent comeback.

[jlw]

So what is the definition of "social levergun"?

I coined the phrase in 2014 when I began offering the "Social Levergun" class to teach the use of a levergun as a defensive tool/patrol rifle.

[Jim Watson]

How are the Winchester 1892s as pistol-caliber rifles?

Mine is quite good. But it is a .44 made ca 1907, not an imported copy.

I allus shot the same ammo in it as in my sixguns for CAS but the accuracy and power requirements were not great.
Now if you are going to hunker down on a bench and expect your lever action to perform like a bolt action, you will likely end up with different ammo for rifle and pistol.

[Malamute]

So what is the definition of "social levergun"? Is it for self-defense, just for plinking/competition, or hunting with just a few rounds shot over a period of time?

And I see the problems listed in this thread with a lever action rifle.........the problems either with the firearm itself or ammo sensitivity, OAL or bullet design. So with these stated problems, why would one use a lever action for self-defense? I have a Marlin in 44 magnum and a Winchester .357 AE. I like them both. The Marlin is a real thumper. A friend of mine has a Navy Arms octagon barrel in .357. Shooting (from a rest) .38s in that firearm was like shooting .22s.

So I guess I am asking, "When, where, and how do you use your lever action rifle? I use mine for plinking at 50 yards or less. I don't hunt so that option isn't in play. For self-defense there are certainly better options available.

When at my normal residence I carry a carbine pretty much daily in the evening on skunk patrol with the dog. I also used to walk daily over by the mountains with the dog(s) and always carried a rifle of some sort. Its not the "IF I were ever in XXX animal country Id take a....", where I live is actual edge of grizzly, wolf, and all the other northern rockies fauna country. I generally have a carbine in the truck anywhere I go. Ive used the gun in the truck on several occasions to finish road hit deer and antelope. I suppose a pistol would work in most of those situations, though Ive heard of hit deer running off with broken leg flopping. I also have a habit of wandering off on spur of the moment to go hiking, exploring roads, camping, whatever. When I leave the home place, Im basically good for a couple days if need be. Just old habits, even if I dont do much of that in recent times.

So, in day to day use, a lever has worked well for most of the things ive used them for, and should continue to work for the realistic possibilities I foresee popping up. ARs are smaller caliber in most iterations, relatively expensive in good examples, and to me, annoyingly bulky to have laying around in the front seat of the truck or just carrying on casual walks. YMMV. I see them as a limited use thing, fun to shoot longer distances in rifle version, but not anything Im interesting in dragging around regularly for my day to day stuff. Dealing with nuisance critters around the home place, providing cover for my dog(s) on walks, and general life stuff is pretty well handled by a lever. The loads are generally decisive in defensive type use if need be, from what I gather.

Most of my lever use has been rifle calibers. I havent had the problems some have mentioned about load incompatibility between rifles and pistols in appropriate calibers. Most stuff seems to work and function at least acceptably if not pretty well.

If we knew what we were going to run into when we walked out the door, wed always have the perfect instrument for handling it, or stay home or change our plans. I keep seeing people online saying "if i want to shoot blah blah Id take my ______". So far i rarely knew what was going to happen on any given day. What I usually take along carbine wise is reasonably useful for my needs, and should serve OK if needed for defensive use. Being in a reputedly gun unfriendly location part time, Im also somewhat cognizant of perception of firearms, and the "He aint from around here" factor that may come up in dire circumstances.

Final factor, ARs, ...meh. Many seem highly interested and motivated to mess with them. They just dont really interest me that much. They are probably one of the best tools for certain jobs, but those certain jobs are extremely low frequency, and if one just doesnt really care much for or about them, one isnt likely to have one available if needed. Odds, stakes, yes, I get the equation. The lever will most likely be adequate for realistic issues Id face as a civvy, same as revolvers will generally handle most issues one may come up against, and have some potential as field/utility/hunting guns thats not as easily done with most automatics. I also have always shot them better with less work and effort than autos. YMMV.

[GLB]

How are the Winchester 1892s as pistol-caliber rifles?

I have one in 45 colt, very accurate and well made.

[JAH 3rd]

Thanks to all those who responded! Your responses are enlightening having added to my knowledge base. That’s what I like about P-F forums....lots of experience shared by others. Thanks again!!

[luckyman]

When at my normal residence I carry a carbine pretty much daily in the evening on skunk patrol with the dog. I also used to walk daily over by the mountains with the dog(s) and always carried a rifle of some sort. Its not the "IF I were ever in XXX animal country Id take a....", where I live is actual edge of grizzly, wolf, and all the other northern rockies fauna country. I generally have a carbine in the truck anywhere I go. Ive used the gun in the truck on several occasions to finish road hit deer and antelope. I suppose a pistol would work in most of those situations, though Ive heard of hit deer running off with broken leg flopping. I also have a habit of wandering off on spur of the moment to go hiking, exploring roads, camping, whatever. When I leave the home place, Im basically good for a couple days if need be. Just old habits, even if I dont do much of that in recent times.

So, in day to day use, a lever has worked well for most of the things ive used them for, and should continue to work for the realistic possibilities I foresee popping up. ARs are smaller caliber in most iterations, relatively expensive in good examples, and to me, annoyingly bulky to have laying around in the front seat of the truck or just carrying on casual walks. YMMV. I see them as a limited use thing, fun to shoot longer distances in rifle version, but not anything Im interesting in dragging around regularly for my day to day stuff. Dealing with nuisance critters around the home place, providing cover for my dog(s) on walks, and general life stuff is pretty well handled by a lever. The loads are generally decisive in defensive type use if need be, from what I gather.

Most of my lever use has been rifle calibers. I havent had the problems some have mentioned about load incompatibility between rifles and pistols in appropriate calibers. Most stuff seems to work and function at least acceptably if not pretty well.

If we knew what we were going to run into when we walked out the door, wed always have the perfect instrument for handling it, or stay home or change our plans. I keep seeing people online saying "if i want to shoot blah blah Id take my ______". So far i rarely knew what was going to happen on any given day. What I usually take along carbine wise is reasonably useful for my needs, and should serve OK if needed for defensive use. Being in a reputedly gun unfriendly location part time, Im also somewhat cognizant of perception of firearms, and the "He aint from around here" factor that may come up in dire circumstances.

Final factor, ARs, ...meh. Many seem highly interested and motivated to mess with them. They just dont really interest me that much. They are probably one of the best tools for certain jobs, but those certain jobs are extremely low frequency, and if one just doesnt really care much for or about them, one isnt likely to have one available if needed. Odds, stakes, yes, I get the equation. The lever will most likely be adequate for realistic issues Id face as a civvy, same as revolvers will generally handle most issues one may come up against, and have some potential as field/utility/hunting guns thats not as easily done with most automatics. I also have always shot them better with less work and effort than autos. YMMV.

Dammit Malamute quit making so much sense! Applying the same logic for my situation all I really *need* for myself is a Beretta 1301 upgrade from my current 590, plus a couple of bolt actions. Everything else is truly in the “want” category if I’m honest.

[fatdog]

For self-defense there are certainly better options available.

True that, at least until her majesty Queen Kamala decrees no more civilian ownership of any form of semi-auto firearm. I can go to my safe and find the revolvers and leverguns while many will have to start shopping

[Malamute]

Dammit Malamute quit making so much sense! Applying the same logic for my situation all I really *need* for myself is a Beretta 1301 upgrade from my current 590, plus a couple of bolt actions. Everything else is truly in the “want” category if I’m honest.

Well, i dont recall saying anything about not having stuff you like, or whatever other reasons one may have things. In my case it just happened that I really liked levers from way back, and in using them, found they pretty much covered most of my practical uses. This after a couple flirtations with ARs here and there as well as messing with several military bolt guns and commercial bolt guns. They just didnt add much to the mix for most uses for me. I like bolt guns, but they arent as handy and nice to carry, length being only one factor, in-hand carry being one I use and like a lot. If Im specifically hunting with longer range shots likely, a bolt rifle is the usual choice, if just a carry gun for normal life, the levers work well for me.

The difference to me is, if its something I truly like and enjoy, its easy to get enthused about using them and practicing. if its just something I think I should do,....its a lot harder to get motivated, and Im far less likely to put in much work to progress much. Past experience also has told me some guns I just shoot better with less work and effort, even if messing with them seems fun rather than like a chore to slog through.


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ion-of-the-Gun