Which class? I'm signed up for the joint Blowers/Pressburg class in July.Originally Posted by El Cid
Which class? I'm signed up for the joint Blowers/Pressburg class in July.
I signed up for a TNVC class at the end of the year. Needed to give myself time to buy all these expensive pieces of kit. Lol! Don’t even have my nods yet, but they’ve been ordered.
Questions for a civilian getting into this for fun and prepardness purposes.
The 2.26" UNITY Mounts for an Aimpoint T2 seem like a great way to go to see the IR reticle under NODs. Is a laser still needed? I am wondering if a civilian would be well off with just the Aimpoint and an IR light, like the Vampire Scout?
Because civilians are limited to low power IR lasers. And in an actual prepardness situation, going passive seems like the way to go. I'm not part of a team with a dozen other dudes with NODs. And it's possible whoever I am trying to be prepared against is running NODs.
I hear the vampire IR lights don't work well at longer distances, and an IR laser can actually work as a long range illuminator. But I heard that from MIL friends who have full power IR lasers. Perhaps not the case with civilian lasers.
It seems like the laser is better for professionals who have access to full power lasers, have a team of other guys with NODs who want them to know where they are shooting, and are doing a direct action mission against an adversary who probably doesn't have NODs.
As a civilian, I'm likely staying in one place, not assaulting anything, trying to avoid trouble, adversary may have NODs, none to few of my friends will have NODs, if I have any friends with me at all. It seems like passive is the way to go here except for the vampire light that would have a momentary switch. And I'm even thinking that would be limited to indoors stuff. So I don't draw attention of anyone with NODs flashing the IR light while outside.
Other benefits of this limited no-laser setup are having less specialized gun because the vampire can switch to vis light, which is needed on a civilian defensive carbine anyway, and the aimpoint is an aimpoint. Basically the gun is the same as a regular civilian gun except with a higher red dot mount. I'd only be giving up say 650 lumens of vis white light, and money, because otherwise the weight and function of such a carbine is identical as a standard defensive carbine, but the Vampire outputs only 350 lumen versus 1000 of a similar 2-cell scout. And honestly I ran 60 lumen lights for home defense and never felt it was an issue as a civilian.
But I dont know what I dont know and I never used an IR laser and have only done a little shooting under NODs with a T2. So maybe the civilian MAWL would be a gamechanger. I'm trying to get into a class later this year when vacation time allows so training will occur, but I want to show up with the right gear and do some solo practice first to get familiar. Using dual tube goggles. Thanks.
Just because your opponent is running NODs doesn't mean the laser is ineffective. It would be the same as refusing to use a WML just because your adversary has eyeballs that can see white light; it simply means there must be light discipline. Due to the narrow FOV of NODs, shooting passively is going to be more difficult and slower than in the day or compared to a laser, particularly once you introduce unorthodox shooting positions (e.g., urban prone, weak-hand side barricades, etc.).
Class 1 lasers have traditionally been poor illuminators. However, with the coming of VCSEL, this means that they can be highly competitive against traditional edge emitting fuller power laser illuminators. I have heard it time and time again that the MAWL-C1's illuminator, despite being classified as Class 1, is far superior to the illuminators on the AN/PEQ-15 or LA-5B. There are also ways to get full power units without too much hassle, such as importing a Perst-3.
And if you're really that worried about folks with NODs, reading between the lines, you're gonna need a lot more than some dual tubes and an Aimpoint to win that fight.
Last edited by Default.mp3; 02-06-2021 at 01:29 PM.
Thanks for the responses. But there is no reading between the lines. That’s not my intention with any of this. For the exact reason you mentioned, it’s going to take a lot more for that and I have no interest in that. I just want to be left alone. I’m just saying NODs are getting more common and if shit goes south there may be local gangs springing up that have NODs, perhaps stolen. I just have to assume if crap goes south, whoever my adversary is may have NODs.
I have to seriously question your threat analysis, then. NODs are certainly getting more common, but it's still an incredibly niche item, to the point that I would find the idea of fighting against local gangs equipped with NODs to be straight up ridiculous if you're not dealing with cartels or some other high powered TCN. Beyond that, if you're really interested in straight up home defense against typical gangs rather than a state actor, I see zero use for NODs unless you're actively going to be standing guard during the night and plan on engaging before they make entry (and even then, thermals would probably be a better tool). Inside a normal house in a defensive posture, I don't see why you wouldn't just stick with white light, particularly against poorly trained, NODs equipped opposition.
Yes, possibly. But I anticipate being alive another 45 years, and I also anticipate it will be illegal for civilians to purchase them between now and the point when I die and hopefully there's some grandfathering.
45 years ago, if I asked about owning an AR15 for home defense, people then would have said it's ridiculous unless I was expecting the Viet Cong to raid my home. And at the time, they were probably right, but at some point over the last 45 years, owning an AR15 transitioned into being reasonable. And we had an AWB in 2004 that an insightful person could have gotten ahead of. And there's several state-level bans of various things like magazines that allowed grandfathering.
So yeah man, in 2021, pretty silly to worry about needing NODs to defend my home, but maybe not so silly in 5, 10, 20 years, and may be illegal at that point for new entrants into private ownership. Or maybe it will never become illegal but in 20 years when it becomes reasonable to need for home defense, I'll have 20 years more experience/practice/skill using them then if I waited until it became necessary. Also it's fun.
@Sanch , I'm civilian too and outfitted myself with a PVS14, mid 2020. My city is big, but isolated, and living where we face natural disasters (hurricanes, mostly) every year. Going without power happens frequently, and if it's storm related, can last for extended periods. The 2020 riots confirmed the assumption, that bad actors will act badly, when it's opportune for them to do so.
My brother has been running NV for a bit, and seems well sorted. When it came time to discuss how we were going to work together if everything went south, we agreed to try and have matching capabilities, to maximize effectiveness, and to not diminish his capabilities (me using white, and he having to NOT use NV because of me). What I did was start with my most basic needs and then scale up:
Observation advantage - I wanted to be able to see what's coming, so I could make better, subsequent decisions. the PVS14 on a neck lanyard is very effective at allowing you to see what others can't. And it's mostly covert. At this point I tried to set up a Crye Nightcap for lo pro head mounting of the NV, but I couldn't make it work. At that point I set up a bump helmet. I have since set up a Raptor skull crusher.
IR Illumination - Rifles got Vampires, and so did the pistols. I also pieced together a SF handheld "vampire", and it replaced my EDC surefire white light
Passive aiming - I converted my primary rifle to use an EXPS3-0. The window size, and the one-button NV had me converted from the aimpoints. My Pistols use RMR's so they are already compatible
At this point I felt kinda ok with my capacity to observe, and at least shoot from a static, stabilized position. But learning to move and passively aim quickly showed me the need for an IR laser. It also showed me that raising the optics, had real benefits. I went with UNITY risers for the Eotechs. It also made me realize that BUIS are nearly worthless to ME, at this point.
IR laser - The addition of a laser made much of the passive shortcoming relegated to a secondary sighting system. Everything is easier with the laser, even at civ power.
Anyway, that's how I progressed. I made sure to get a good feel of my shortcomings at each step, so I could figure out how to proceed. And mis-steps are super costly at this point. And I had to be realistic about what I wanted out of this system.
Here's the thing, it would remain silly in the long run if it gets banned, because no one would have it; unlike firearms, NODs based on image intensifier tubes are a much more technologically complex item, to the point that there are only a few manufacturers in the world capable of turning out anything that is significantly better than current CMOS/CCD tech, so proliferation is not an issue (and should CMOS/CCD or some other digital technology finally match analog systems, then I would find it extremely unlikely to be able to be banned, given their massive use these days already). Proliferation is possible, sure, but it would only be possible if there were not restrictions, so those two drivers are at odds with each other.
Also, if you're worried about shit getting banned, why would you not be looking at getting into a laser, since that would be just as likely to be banned?
I get the whole potentially for banning, and the just for fun aspect; both of those are literally the only reasons I got into NODs, with the infinitesimal chance of actually needing to use it for anything serious. Your emphasis on passive aiming is what threw me off, along with the perceived threat of gangs.
I was thinking about buying a second set of NODs, possibly a single tube PVS14 with the remaining budget rather than a laser. I don't know what I don't know and I've never used an IR laser. So if IR lasers make sense for civilians and there's no concern of an outfitted adversary nailing you because of your IR laser, then I'll get an IR laser.
I'm not opposed to it, I just don't understand it and am trying to make sense of scenarios I'd be using NODs. I'm not planning to fight the government. The most likely threat I perceive that might have NODs is in a post-disaster world a roving band of mauranders/gangs under a warlord, and they have NODs and other liberated national guard / PD equipment. Or perhaps Antifa using their stimmy checks and Gamestop profits to buying NODs for when they peacefully protest next.
And me using a laser might invite incoming fire. Although maybe the scenario is ridiculous because I think you only activate the laser just before you're going to shoot and they'll recognize the gunfire. Not sure how much a suppressor helps. I do guess an IR laser would be much more of a "LOOK, HE'S EXACTLY THERE" kind of thing, but I don't know what I don't know.
And perhaps if the decision is made to engage, and they don't know I'm there, then activating the IR laser a few seconds before I shoot, would let them know what's about to happen and give them time to return fire or take cover. All ridiculous as a civilian, I know, but perhaps owning NODs and IR lasers/illum is ridiculous as a civilian anyway.
In my naive brain without experience to this stuff, it would seem to me that going passive would be far better for someone like me. But maybe the answer is both. Maybe in that hypothetical defensive ambush, you start off using passive aimpoint IR reticle, and once you start shooting, switch to IR since it's (maybe?) faster to shoot with and they already know where you are?
I'm down to buy an IR laser, but I wasn't sure if it was ARFCOM type silliness for someone like me to own that or if it made actual sense. Or if none of it makes any sense so just go full retard and get the MAWL.
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