Formerly known as xpd54.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...
Formerly known as xpd54.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com
Regarding Big T's comment on reliability between pump guns and semi-autos, specifically 1301s and M2s
I'll agree with the Hardware / Software description. I've been unimpressed with the long term reliability of Remington 870s since my old org bought it's big batch of them in '04. Those guns were individually issued, so - in theory - they should have been better cared for than our old ones that ended up wherever, whenever. Those guns had breakage issues I hadn't seen before.
Then add in potential ammunition concerns.
On the user side, we are years & years into several semi-auto platforms where the user "only" has to align the sights, press the trigger, and eventually reload the weapon. They haven't had to cycle the gun as well to make it work each time - a different operation. I've seen short stroking before and I still see it. A quality semi-auto takes away some of those issues.
FWIW, we had the same problem back in 2008-ish when IDPA tried its own version of 3-gun (which, eventually, turned into just plain ol USPSA style outlaw 3-gun). The number of (mostly Remington) pump shotguns that didn't have issues were dwarfed by the number that did.
Same issues seen here. Chief among them were rough chambers with stuck empties while using shitty bulk pack Walmart shells. A couple guys polished the chambers and that helped, but the problems with inexpensive ammo persisted. The only people that cracked that nut did both barrel work and got real picky about the shells they would use.
I don't know how far you have to go back for the Remington 870 to deserve its reputation for reliability, but I don't think most guns made this century will qualify.
The 870 was never intended for the kind of high round counts we see today. It was designed as a hunting shotgun, after all. That said, there are definitely little tweaks that can improve or degrade reliability over time. A lot of those little tweaks have been lost to time as fewer and fewer organizations issue them and use them hard. We generally see a fair number of extraction issues, especially with crap ammo and newer (i.e. the last 15 years or so) guns. But we also see action bars break periodically, and I would bet that a lot of that has to do with improper reassembly after swapping forends. When you screw that nut on to secure the handguard onto the action bar tube, it's important not to over-tighten and especially not to allow the bars to torque out of line. But how many people know that, these days? And on top of that, how many of those old guns have ever seen a replacement magazine spring or fire control group maintenance? Thus it's no surprise to me when they fail in classes.
And yeah, I totally agree about the issues with manual repeaters when used by people who have no background in them at all. Short-stroking is definitely a thing, and with the modern generation of shooters, I'd wager it's a bigger reliability issue than exists with good ammo in modern semi-autos.
Matt Haught
SYMTAC Consulting LLC
https://sym-tac.com
The reliability question is one of context. In the context of repeating shotguns in the 20th century, the 870 was a godsend. It was dramatically less complicated than older pump guns. Those guns are lovely things, but anyone who has actually broken down a Winchester model 12 will very quickly understand why everybody went out and bought an 870 when they showed up.
The 870 was more "reliable" with a wider range of ammunition than the semi-autos of the day...especially when we factor in lack of maintenance. The semi-autos were typically picky and you had to keep magazine springs and other parts changed out in them for the guns to run reliably. The typical bird hunter does not lovingly clean and polish his shotgun after every use. They take it out for the season, drag it through the muck, shoot it, and then stick it back in the closet when they're done. A pump gun will actually still feed shells with this catastrophic lack of maintenance. A Browning A5, not so much.
The newer generation semi-auto shotguns developed for high volume clay shooting and bird hunting are a different animal. They have chrome lined everything and higher quality parts. It's a reason why they cost 2-3 times what a typical pump gun costs, and with that you get the ability to shoot a whole lot more shells through the guns without serious breakage. Most were still picky about what ammo they would run happily, though.
The 1301 is remarkable precisely because it combines an almost pump-like ability to run a wide variety of ammunition with the high round count durability of the best in modern semi-auto design, and does all of that while being lighter, handier, and softer shooting than most anything else on the market. There's a reason why just about everyone who gives it the Pepsi Challenge ends up purchasing one.
Defensive shotguns are asked to do more volume today, and often with less mechanical sympathy from typically oblivious end users. 100 years ago every person using a pump shotgun had experience maintaining machinery. If one in fifty people who I see in a class have actually changed their own oil at some point I'd be surprised. In the last two classes I've done I've seen multiple 870 shotguns with rust growing on the outside and not a drop of oil evident anywhere on the weapon.
"Oh, you need to oil these?"
"Every firearm involves at least some metal to metal contact. Where there is metal to metal contact you need lubrication. Every metal used in firearms is subject to corrosion. Where there is the possibility of corrosion, you need lubrication to prevent it."
In terms of reliability issues, the major issues I see broken down by brand/model and in order of frequency:
Remington 870:
- Rough chambers. Effects are more pronounced with some types of ammo over others. Can usually be mortared and business can continue.
- Broken ejectors
Mossberg 500/590:
- Rough chambers
- Internal parts seize up. More and more frequently I'm seeing guns come out of the box running really rough and then eventually just completely locking up. Even mortaring does nothing but maybe make it worse. Generally they need a complete rework of all the stamped steel parts (which aren't always manufactured with care)
- Broken or spontaneously activating safeties
Mossberg 930:
- Shells stuck in the chamber (often so stuck that I can't mortar them out, deadlining the gun)
- Shells jumping the shell stops and locking up the action
- To this point I've encountered three 930's that worked. I've seen a lot more than 3 in class, but I've counted three of them that didn't have multiple stoppages in class. Often the stoppages happen, I fix them, and then it locks up so bad that I can't get it running again and have to give them a loaner so I don't soak up too much class time trying to fix their busted gun.
Beretta 1301:
- Shell stop adjustment. Occasionally one will show up that isn't feeding right and it usually needs to visit home base to have the shell stop function adjusted properly. That usually resolves it. At this point I've probably seen as many 1301 shotguns in class as anyone in the country and I can count the number of guns that have needed a trip back to the factory on one hand.
Across the board:
- Fasteners for accessories come loose, often breaking things in the process.
- Ammunition quality on the low end of the spectrum is appalling. Spending a little more on bulk ammo gets a much better product. Rio is still the fucking worst.
- People seem to have a pathological hatred of lubricating their firearms. I've lost count of how many parkerized guns I've seen that have that "ashy" greyish tinge to them that advertises "THE LAST OIL THAT TOUCHED ME WAS CUTTING FLUID FROM A CNC MACHINE"
3/15/2016
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...