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Thread: Shotguns I saw this week (I promise I won’t do carbines)

  1. #81
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LHS View Post
    FWIW, we're seeing more and more students who haven't grown up on pump guns, but on ARs. To them, the idea of having to manually operate the gun to cycle it is completely foreign.
    I'm sure that will be more and more the case. A not insignificant number of newer/younger shooters have little experience beyond 10/22's, AR's and Glocks. I suppose it is probably a bit like the number of people who can't operate a vehicle with a manual transmission.
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  2. #82
    Site Supporter Elwin's Avatar
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    This is not to dig on this individual, because I like him, and he’s a serious and sober gun owner. But a friend of mine whose interest in firearms began during his long and distinguished military service has gone to the range with me a couple times, and when he asked to shoot my scout rifle, he instinctively tried to fire a second round without running the bolt. He immediately said something to the effect of “that’s what happens when everything you’ve shot so far loads itself.”

    Definitely a thing.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    One of the advantages of variable gas systems the 1301 (and the Benelli M4) vs recoil operated semis is I’ve yet to find any ammunition which is not reliable in the 1301.
    IME the 1301 and M4 are significantly less “fussy” than traditional semi auto hunting shotguns.
    Quote Originally Posted by LHS View Post
    FWIW, we're seeing more and more students who haven't grown up on pump guns, but on ARs. To them, the idea of having to manually operate the gun to cycle it is completely foreign.
    I remember how revolvers were considered to be (were?) more reliable than pistols, but now modern pistols with good magazines are more tolerant that revolvers.

    The bulk of my auto shotgun experience started with a 1100 Express Synthetic, it was a cheap gun that ran like a top. It was a 2-3/4" gun only, so it only had to be tuned for 2-3/4" shells. That was one of the few guns I ever shot until something broke, I put tons of rounds through it shooting trap and skeet (unfortunately it broke after I had sold it to a buddy and borrowed it back, but parts were readily available and I fixed it up before I returned it). I used to detail strip it and soak in WD-40 in one of those trays for wallpaper paste, blow it off and wipe it down and pour the dirty WD-40 back in the gallon can until I needed it the next time. I got tired of the cleaning cycles so I bought an Over/Under. Then I wanted an all weather auto and I got the 391 Xtreama, just as reliable as the 1100 but didn't need the cleaning so much, and it would digest whatever. Once as a test I loaded a 7/8oz 2-3/4" reload in front of a 3-1/2" magnum and it was chuga-boom, like it was no big deal. Based on the confidence developed from shooting my 391 I am pretty comfortable with the two 1301s I recently bought.

    So at this point I do not think reliability is part of the decision matrix anymore, but OTOH when I go to our little local three gun matches I see plenty of malfunctions, so maybe it depends. It never seems to be the Berettas or the Benellis, though perhaps available ammo factors into this as well.

  4. #84
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmc45414 View Post
    So at this point I do not think reliability is part of the decision matrix anymore, but OTOH when I go to our little local three gun matches I see plenty of malfunctions, so maybe it depends. It never seems to be the Berettas or the Benellis, though perhaps available ammo factors into this as well.
    Ammo is more critical in shotguns than in any other weapon system since the standards around which it can be manufactured are so loose. When one encounters a problem with their gun ammunition should be the first suspect unless it's a type of ammo they know well.

    If one is shooting a 1301 with Federal Flight Control loads that have intact hulls with the proper roll crimp at the top (aids in reliable feeding) and no grex spilling out, it's reasonable to start with the gun. But apart from that, eliminate the ammunition first.

    That being said, the Beretta 1301 is remarkably tolerant with ammunition. It's reliably fed crappy Rio shells that even my 870 has choked on.
    3/15/2016

  5. #85
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensaw View Post
    At this stage of the game, does the pump provide any meaningful advantage over a 1301 for defensive use?
    Keep in mind that I'm saying this based off of my observations teaching people from all sorts of different backgrounds running pumps and semi-autos:

    Yes.

    Every family of semi-auto has its own manual of arms with the same basic functions handled by controls located in different places. Safeties, bolt releases, shell releases, are all located in different places with different sizes and shapes. When I'm running a class through setting up their gun from cruiser ready (in Home Defense Shotgun *every* rep we do is from cruiser ready except for some manipulations drills...because I'm drilling in the setup and getting the gun ready for action with every rep.) the pump people are pretty easy to walk through it.

    But I routinely watch even shooters with good backgrounds staring at their semi-autos like a calf at a new gate trying to figure out which protrusion they need to push to make their gun work once I start dialing up the stress a little bit in the more advanced classes.

    The 1301 is a splendid shotgun and it's my first choice for a serious use shotgun due to its many advantages. But I've also spent a boatload of time with one in my hands and at this point running it is second nature. This is most definitely not the case for most shooters, even people who are enthusiastic about shotguns and the 1301 in particular. You need a minimum number of reps running a semi-auto to get the manipulations sufficiently ingrained that they show up when your mental faculties are occupied by something other than just running your gun. Most people are not getting that number of reps either through dryfire or live fire.

    Give me one day with someone and tell me they're going to be in a gunfight tomorrow, and I'm handing them an 870. Not a 1301. The pump gun is simpler to setup, to get into action, and to keep fed than a semi-auto for someone who hasn't put in the reps necessary to run the semi-auto. If someone hasn't done the work or won't do the work, a pump gun is a vastly better option.

    Obviously that can be overcome...but if I've learned anything in presenting shotgun classes across 1/2 of North America at this point it's that people don't touch defensive shotguns anywhere near as often as they really should. Combine that with generally not having much background in how shotguns work because they didn't grow up killing things with shotguns and the result is someone who struggles to remember how to make their gun do what they want it to when they want it to do something. Pumps can be fiddly, too, but people seem to be able to understand CHUNK-CHUNK-BOOM more easily.

    When you see a line that's 1/2 870's and 1/2 semi-autos of various stripes and you watch the pump people just shooting while about 1/2 the semi-auto shooters are pawing at their gun trying to make it work, you see why the pump gun remains as valid an option for defense today as it has ever been.
    3/15/2016

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    That being said, the Beretta 1301 is remarkably tolerant with ammunition. It's reliably fed crappy Rio shells that even my 870 has choked on.
    I have recently seen a lotta pump guns (mostly 870s) not want to extract bulk pack steel base shells. They all eventually did, but some of them needed to be mortared pretty aggressively.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Keep in mind that I'm saying this based off of my observations teaching people from all sorts of different backgrounds running pumps and semi-autos:
    Yes...
    Wow. That is quite insightful! Thank you.
    All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
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  8. #88
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    On the theme of shotguns I saw in class, I taught Shotgun Skills for FPF Training this weekend.

    2 Mossberg shotguns, a 500 and 590. The 500 had a Swampfox optic mounted, the 590 was irons. Both worked smoothly, but both were guns purchased a long time ago that had at least some shooting through them over the years. The Swampfox mounted on that Mossberg 500 stayed on and took the round count without damage or defect.

    The rest was split about even between Beretta 1301's and Remington 870s...which is remarkable. Seeing a class that's half 1301 is becoming pretty common for us now, a testament to the word getting out there about the gun.

    The 1301's ran splendidly as usual. The users struggled with some of the controls on occasion, but they ran. And one of the owners, a middle-aged woman about 5'4" tall and about 130 pounds, ran and loaded the gun like a pro. She was running her 1301 next to a 6'5" 350+ pound dude with an 870 who was somewhat flabbergasted by the sight of this tiny Italian lady kicking ass with a 12 gauge. The only equipment issue that emerged was a Haught mod rear sight on a pretty new gun with a CROM wasn't set with thread locker and started spinning during recoil.

    The 870's, unsurprisingly, also ran pretty well. One was a SBS, a duty weapon for a police officer that had obviously been around for a while. It had that sort of greenish tinge to it that an 870 Police can get after years of use. The action was locking up occasionally because the action lock was flat beat to hell and needed to be replaced...as did probably several other components in the trigger plate on that 870. This problem didn't become noticeable until he ran the gun hard, which his police quals apparently didn't require. He seemed quite happy to discover the problem in class rather than on the street...and by his seniority I'm guessing that department's shotguns will get looked over pretty carefully because they have a bunch of guns of that vintage.

    We had one KSG in class. The owner of that KSG has trained with me before and took some pride in being one of two KSG's that have actually worked in class. (Although in a prior class his gun had to go offline for about 30 minutes while another instructor fiddled with it to make it work) He emailed me before class saying one of the tubes had stopped feeding rounds but he was going to run it with the other tube. He did, although when I ran the gun I found the action was moving as if it was encased in jell-o, indicating that something was getting torn up worse and worse every time he worked the action. He stated his intention to go buy a 1301 the next day.

    Something almost all the pump guns had in common was no evidence of lubrication on them whatsoever. People seem to think pump guns don't need lube.
    3/15/2016

  9. #89
    My main 870 shotguns have NP3 which provides lubricity and corrosion resistance. Very helpful on a shotgun and especially a shotgun that is exposed to the elements and gets dragged around in boats, ATVs and the like. In Alaska, many to most ATVs have a shotgun on a rack as standard equipment, and that leads to a rough life.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  10. #90
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    My main 870 shotguns have NP3 which provides lubricity and corrosion resistance. Very helpful on a shotgun and especially a shotgun that is exposed to the elements and gets dragged around in boats, ATVs and the like. In Alaska, many to most ATVs have a shotgun on a rack as standard equipment, and that leads to a rough life.
    We had an 870 Marine Magnum in the house some years ago, and it was the slickest of the new, out-of-the-box 870s we have owned, though probably not NP3 slick. I remember hearing (take that for what it is worth) that they were made by the LE/MIL 870 crew at Ilion, and were thus less problematic than the box-store 870s of the day. It was traded off for an AR that is no longer around, and in hindsight, the MM was the more useful utilitarian tool, though it suffered a bit from the paucity of different barrel options having the electroless nickel finish.

    Marine Magnums have never been common in these parts, and the one we had was usually an attention-getter when it was taken out for a spin.
    gn

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