Shotguns I saw this week (I promise I won’t do carbines)

[Erick Gelhaus]

Two weeks ago, I did a six day string of shotgun classes at Gunsite (#260 Defensive Shotgun, Shotgun Advanced Tactical Problems, and then a Shotgun Range Day).

I recorded only the eight guns that made it through the first five days, and I didn’t get the three that only did the first three days.

- Benelli M4 12ga semi-auto with an Aimpoint H2, Crimson Trace light. There was an issue with the magazine tube/clamp and light loads, about 5% failed to cycle;
- Benelli M4 12ga, Holosun EPS & Streamlight ProTac HLX, lost the bolt handle 2x, no other issues;
- Benelli M4 12ga, absolutely nothing added to it, no issues either;
- Beretta 1301 12ga, with a Holosun & a Streamlight, had issues with the sling, and it was perpetually too dry;
- Benelli M4 12ga (Agency Arms) with a ported barrel. Failures to feed regardless of the loads and failed to feed, extract, eject with low recoil loads, I recovered the bolt handle from various spots on the ground at least seven times & lost count of how many more times it happened;
- Beretta A300UP 12ga with a Holosun 510C and an Olight, no problems noted;
- Beretta 1301 12ga with LTT/GG&G parts and Holosun 507C, Streamlight HLX fell off with the cord across the front sight & IFO the bore, shell carrier screws repeatedly falling out, completely jammed magazine tube, failures to fire & eject;
- Beretta 1301 with Streamlight ProTec HLX that kept strobing <-- “That’s trash!”

This is the first time I have not had a single pump gun in these classes.

There were two-night shoots. The first was all square range work, covering manipulation of the gun and light, static searching, and engagements. The second started on the square range before moving through two outdoor and one indoor simulator.

Two more indoor and two more outdoor simulators were run in the daylight, too.

The round count was around 350 rounds of buckshot, 300 rounds of birdshot, 100 rounds of slugs, and about 30 rounds of handgun.

[GearFondler]

Imagine the price someone paid for that Agency Arms M4 only to have it shit the bed... But hey, at least it looks bad-ass!

[Dennis]

I had the same issue with my oversized Benelli M4 bolt handle coming out when doing lots of vigorous select slug drills. I went to a thinner titanium one and it still happened occasionally. I then Alumnahyde epoxy painted the the thinner handle to make it sorta slippery/less grippy and no issues for many years of training across many select slug drills.

I did check/clean the detent. However, I don't see how anyone with an oversized handle can keep it in if doing lots of timed/stress select slug in training. I think there can be a lot of outward pressure especially from the prone position and more grippy handle = lost bolt handle = non-functional duty weapon.

That said, I still keep wanting to upgrade to a new bigger bolt handle [emoji12]

Dennis.


Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[ricky_bobby]

I had the same issue with my oversized Benelli M4 bolt handle coming out when doing lots of vigorous select slug drills. I went to a thinner titanium one and it still happened occasionally. I then Alumnahyde epoxy painted the the thinner handle to make it sorta slippery/less grippy and no issues for many years of training across many select slug drills.

I did check/clean the detent. However, I don't see how anyone with an oversized handle can keep it in if doing lots of timed/stress select slug in training. I think there can be a lot of outward pressure especially from the prone position and more grippy handle = lost bolt handle = non-functional duty weapon.

That said, I still keep wanting to upgrade to a new bigger bolt handle [emoji12]

Dennis.


Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

I sort of feel the same way - I have the factory handle on my Panzer M4 clone, and it fits in the detent very snug - the oversized one I have (Dave's Metal Works) fits, but doesn't engage the detent as positively, I may need to scuff the little recesses a bit and see if that helps but it seems like it removes easier than the factory handle so I'm leaving factory handle as is for now-

[Borderland]

I remember how revolvers were considered to be (were?) more reliable than pistols, but now modern pistols with good magazines are more tolerant that revolvers.

The bulk of my auto shotgun experience started with a 1100 Express Synthetic, it was a cheap gun that ran like a top. It was a 2-3/4" gun only, so it only had to be tuned for 2-3/4" shells. That was one of the few guns I ever shot until something broke, I put tons of rounds through it shooting trap and skeet (unfortunately it broke after I had sold it to a buddy and borrowed it back, but parts were readily available and I fixed it up before I returned it). I used to detail strip it and soak in WD-40 in one of those trays for wallpaper paste, blow it off and wipe it down and pour the dirty WD-40 back in the gallon can until I needed it the next time. I got tired of the cleaning cycles so I bought an Over/Under. Then I wanted an all weather auto and I got the 391 Xtreama, just as reliable as the 1100 but didn't need the cleaning so much, and it would digest whatever. Once as a test I loaded a 7/8oz 2-3/4" reload in front of a 3-1/2" magnum and it was chuga-boom, like it was no big deal. Based on the confidence developed from shooting my 391 I am pretty comfortable with the two 1301s I recently bought.

So at this point I do not think reliability is part of the decision matrix anymore, but OTOH when I go to our little local three gun matches I see plenty of malfunctions, so maybe it depends. It never seems to be the Berettas or the Benellis, though perhaps available ammo factors into this as well.

A few weeks ago my 11-87 slammed a shell so far into the chamber it wouldn't extract. Had to pry it out with a pocket knife. It fired the round though. I'm pretty sure it was the crap Winchester white box ammo. I stopped using that.

[gato naranja]

I recorded only the eight guns that made it through the first five days, and I didn’t get the three that only did the first three days.

- Benelli M4 12ga semi-auto with an Aimpoint H2, Crimson Trace light. There was an issue with the magazine tube/clamp and light loads, about 5% failed to cycle;
- Benelli M4 12ga, Holosun EPS & Streamlight ProTac HLX, lost the bolt handle 2x, no other issues;
- Benelli M4 12ga, absolutely nothing added to it, no issues either;
- Beretta 1301 12ga, with a Holosun & a Streamlight, had issues with the sling, and it was perpetually too dry;
- Benelli M4 12ga (Agency Arms) with a ported barrel. Failures to feed regardless of the loads and failed to feed, extract, eject with low recoil loads, I recovered the bolt handle from various spots on the ground at least seven times & lost count of how many more times it happened;
- Beretta A300UP 12ga with a Holosun 510C and an Olight, no problems noted;
- Beretta 1301 12ga with LTT/GG&G parts and Holosun 507C, Streamlight HLX fell off with the cord across the front sight & IFO the bore, shell carrier screws repeatedly falling out, completely jammed magazine tube, failures to fire & eject;
- Beretta 1301 with Streamlight ProTec HLX that kept strobing <-- “That’s trash!”

This is the first time I have not had a single pump gun in these classes.

Just as the AR has become the "norm" among the younger guys, semiauto shotguns are a hot thing now. Some of the, shall we say, "popularly priced" semis are really, really dogs WRT reliability; those owners who claim their examples are running like clocks need to buy lottery tickets while their luck holds. Some of this stuff I am watching the great unwashed struggle with is utter garbage. Even among the better-equipped, I am also seeing small, sometimes one-off glitches that mean little on a range, but could be a disaster in a defensive situation. And that's just the guns... magazine tubes, clamps and accessories misbehaving are frosting on the cake.

Perhaps I am over-simplifying and being shallow, but that list seems to suggest that if one buys a semiauto that stands a chance of actually working, and runs it as-is, the less likely one is to have problems. Sort of like I concluded about pump guns.

On that note, it's sad to see nobody taking a pump gun to the prom.

[TCinVA]

- Beretta 1301 12ga with LTT/GG&G parts and Holosun 507C, Streamlight HLX fell off with the cord across the front sight & IFO the bore, shell carrier screws repeatedly falling out, completely jammed magazine tube, failures to fire & eject;

The GG&G side saddle is a hateful thing even when it's not falling apart.

I've run into several instances of the LTT package on a 1301 having magazine tube issues, all of them hanging up in the transition between the Nordic magazine tube extension (which is a good extension) and the factory magazine, and all of them not using the factory follower. So I'm not surprised by that, assuming it was in fact one of the older guns that doesn't have the one piece magazine tube. In the 1301 the safest practice is to stick with the factory follower. If an aftermarket follower is really, really, really important to somebody, get the Aridus unit because that one was built specifically to avoid the hang-up issues when using aftermarket magazine tube extensions.

I'm also not shocked about the Benelli M4 charging handles as people seem intent on replacing them with aftermarket pieces that aren't made to the same spec as the factory unit where it should lock into the bolt so they pull out if you even look at them funny. People have a bad habit of doing that with the 1301, too, and it usually takes standing there holding the bolt handle with a "Well that's never happened before!" look on their face to figure out that the shotgun hillbilly might have a point.

[TCinVA]

Perhaps I am over-simplifying and being shallow, but that list seems to suggest that if one buys a semiauto that stands a chance of actually working, and runs it as-is, the less likely one is to have problems. Sort of like I concluded about pump guns.

When AR people buy shotguns they want to do AR things to them. I have a returning client who bought an M4 and then invested a lot of money into modifying the M4 only to find out it consistently had issues actually lighting a primer. I eliminated his ammo as a first step and then it manifested the behavior in my ammo as well. Having noted how many times I've had to put his aftermarket charging handle back into the thing I said "Did the fire control group get modified?"

I got the RCA dog look and rephrased "Did you do anything to the trigger?"

Turns out he had a trigger job done with all new springs in the fire control group. And now the trigger was so "good" it wouldn't reliably fire.

The bigger bolt handle yanked out about every 3rd time he tried to run the bolt, the extended bolt release at first didn't work right and then later on came loose and yeeted itself from the gun, it wouldn't reliably light a primer...it was a mess. He ended the day on my 1301.

Just like Glocks and 1911's and ARs, lots of people might make parts for them but it's a fair bet that only a small percentage of them are actually going to provide anything like the service you're looking for.

[mmc45414]

On that note, it's sad to see nobody taking a pump gun to the prom.

I have two Beretta autos and two O/Us, and had pretty much forsaken pump guns.
I recently decided I was maybe wrong and bought a M590 and a M500 (two barrel set). Wednesday I shot skeet with the M500 in an effort to regain the mojo I maybe never had. It went pretty well considering and I currently plan to stick with it for the summer, because I should be good with a pump gun, darnit!

[gato naranja]

...because I should be good with a pump gun, darnit!

I aspired to that as well, but I never got there... and I am now too old to care. I have long been paranoid about short-stroking the various 870s that have come and gone (despite not having actually done so in some years), and a semiauto was looking better and better, particularly the 1301T and the A300 UP.

The truth is, I could probably fumble with those just as easily. Moreover, I see younger guys - who shoot more than I do nowadays - having so many piddling issues with their semiauto shotguns that I am not quite as interested in taking the leap.