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Thread: Pre-ignition flinch (aka "flinch") OR Post-ignition flinch (aka "recoil management")?

  1. #1
    Member rodralig's Avatar
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    Pre-ignition flinch (aka "flinch") OR Post-ignition flinch (aka "recoil management")?

    Good morning All...

    Due to personal situation, I am unable to practice live fire drills before a match/classifier to validate my training in dry practice... So, when the opportunity presented itself post-match last Saturday - I wanted to validate my 2-Reload-2 (aka "Four Aces") which I am currently working in DF.

    Although, wasn't quite successful as I was getting failure to fire after a reload across 9 out of 10 reps (just killing time and remaining ammo from the match)...


    Setting the troubleshooting of the FTF aside, I got feedback/comments that I was flinching...

    Considering that the goal of the Four Aces drill is to get draw-2 shots-reload-2 shots in under 2-sec, the name of the game is speed... What do you think?

    Pre-ignition flinch (aka "flinch") or post-ignition flinch (aka "recoil management")...? At least for the first two shots, all them are in the A-zone of the target (USPSA paper at 7-yards). And yes, for transparency - these are not reloads with 'customized' recoil. These are factory Remington UMC 115GR.

    Cheers,




    _

  2. #2
    Looks pre-ignition to me, including not the wrist but also a shoulder action down.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
    Good morning All...

    Due to personal situation, I am unable to practice live fire drills before a match/classifier to validate my training in dry practice... So, when the opportunity presented itself post-match last Saturday - I wanted to validate my 2-Reload-2 (aka "Four Aces") which I am currently working in DF.

    Although, wasn't quite successful as I was getting failure to fire after a reload across 9 out of 10 reps (just killing time and remaining ammo from the match)...


    Setting the troubleshooting of the FTF aside, I got feedback/comments that I was flinching...

    Considering that the goal of the Four Aces drill is to get draw-2 shots-reload-2 shots in under 2-sec, the name of the game is speed... What do you think?

    Pre-ignition flinch (aka "flinch") or post-ignition flinch (aka "recoil management")...? At least for the first two shots, all them are in the A-zone of the target (USPSA paper at 7-yards). And yes, for transparency - these are not reloads with 'customized' recoil. These are factory Remington UMC 115GR.

    Cheers,




    _
    That appears to be classic pre-ignition push aka recoil anticipation.

    Precise language is important and "Pre-ignition flinch (aka "flinch") or post-ignition flinch (aka "recoil management")" is an imprecise jumble that doesn't help. I deal with these issues with many of our shooters at work. First, "Flinch" is both inaccurate and implies the shooter is somehow afraid of the gun / gunshot so lets eliminate that word.

    "pre-ignition push" aka "recoil anticipation" is a mental issue. It can be because your subconscious doesn't like small explosions in front of your face, because you are literally trying too hard and getting ahead of yourself or a mix of the two. The result is your subconscious pushes / breaks your wrist trying to "beat" the recoil. You can train out of it to some degree with things like ball / dummy drills but the most reliable fix is more support hand grip. Recoil anticipation normally only effects the firing hand.

    Failing to follow through and not letting the gun recoil are separate issues. They are not any form of "flinch." They can be the result of sloppy technique or, conversely the result of trying too hard to control recoil or trying to shoot to a cadence vs shooting to the sights.

    A good place to start is with Sgt. Major Pressburg's "Flinchies" video:


  4. #4
    Member rodralig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post

    A good place to start is with Sgt. Major Pressburg's "Flinchies" video:
    Thank you for the response. I am now making adjustments to my live fire practice, ie., going back to the 50/50 drill. Cheers!!!


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    Nearly impossible to tell from a video. Where are your hits? If they are low, then it’s a flinch. If they are where your sights said they should be, it’s pre.

  6. #6
    I'll second Chuck's video. Really profound stuff. There's also a P&S modcast on "the shot process" that delves into it pretty deep. Problem is it's about three hours long.

  7. #7
    Member rodralig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    Nearly impossible to tell from a video. Where are your hits? If they are low, then it’s a flinch. If they are where your sights said they should be, it’s pre.
    Hi Sir... Yes, that is what I was trying to say... It is not about making excuses, but at that range (7~10-yards) - my shots were in the acceptable target zone. They were all As - and in the upper half of the USPSA A-zone rectangle in about a few fist-sized groups where I was aiming.

    Of course, at farther ranges - my breaks will be more deliberate/more control.


    That said, were you to say "post" instead of "pre"...? You wrote, "if they are where your sight said they should be, it's pre"...



    Anyways, as said - went back to the range and practiced 50/50 drills, ie., chamber a round, then remove the magazine. Fire two shots (the second will be on an empty chamber). At slower splits - no "flinch." Obviously at speed, there are dips!!


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  8. #8
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    If you're going to shoot 0.16 splits, you can't wait for the sights to return before deciding to fire the second shot. The gun isn't going to return itself; your muscles have to do that. If the second shot is a misfire, there will be a small dip in the sights because you are predicting the timing of the gun.

    However, you don't want to push down on the gun before or while it fires. Only return the gun after it fires. Use only as much effort as needed and no more. This takes a lot of work and ammo to figure out (e.g. doubles drills).
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  9. #9
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
    Anyways, as said - went back to the range and practiced 50/50 drills, ie., chamber a round, then remove the magazine. Fire two shots (the second will be on an empty chamber). At slower splits - no "flinch." Obviously at speed, there are dips!!
    Sounds like you don't have a problem. Turning off "predictive" recoil control once you develop it is a fairly advanced skill.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  10. #10
    Site Supporter 98z28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    ...

    A good place to start is with Sgt. Major Pressburg's "Flinchies" video:

    That is a fantastic video with good advice. Thank you far posting it.

    Interesting how people respond differently to different things. I have always struggled with "the flinchies" as Pressburg calls them. He mentioned that prepping the trigger helps him, that short and light single action triggers are easier to shoot, and that DA/SA guns exasperate the problem. My experience is the opposite. A smooth, long trigger press is much easier to roll through without flinching than a short single action trigger with a wall. The longer trigger press helps me do exactly what he described in the video: press through the trigger without my brain screaming "It's going off NOW! Dip the muzzle!"

    Ball and dummy drills help, but you have to be switched on and know where the dip is coming from. While illuminating, it can be mentally tiring and frustrating. I have found that switching trigger types for a few rounds can also help. That is, if you're shooting a Glock, switch to a revolver or DA/SA for a run or two and then go back to the Glock.

    My flinch returns every time I take more than two weeks off of live fire. It is massively frustrating. I watch the dot dip low and left and then rise in recoil, and I didn't give my hands and wrists the command to flinch. Using a ball and dummy mix or switching trigger types will reduce the flinch within a given range session, and I find that I can re-wire my brain to stop the flinch after two live fire sessions. Then I just have to consistently engage in live fire (at least once every two weeks) to keep the flinchies at bay. If you struggle with a flinch, regular live fire can be the ticket to keeping under control. It is a mental issue, so be sure to address it immediately when you notice it. I suspect that continuing to shoot with the flinch can ingrain it deeper and make it harder to overcome. If I notice a filching issue, I will put my plan on hold and address it before continuing with whatever I planned to do that day.

    Interestingly, I don't think it is the explosion in front of my face that leads to the flinch. It's the consequence of an actual projectile hitting the target that screws with me mentally. If I haven't shot in a while, I'll see the flinch when I shoot a BB gun or a .22. If I can't get to the range, then spending time with a BB or air soft gun will help keep the flinch at bay. Brains are weird.

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