SF starts non-police behavioral response

[gkieser92]

Could the reason for your success also be because as an adult you're got significant advantage over a 1st grader that will not be present when dealing with disturbed adults who are possibly armed, potentially intoxicated to the point of super human strength, not someone that you have such a dominant physical ability over regardless, and who is (bares repeating) potentially armed?

That is definitely a factor. My main point is that unless the mental health providers are trained and equipped to actually, physically intervene in a crisis, then police will have to be called anyways. In our schools where there were not trained staff, police were called on a regular basis. This put police in an impossible situation because they were being asked to go hands on with children in order to control non-criminal behavior, which is not what force is for. The techniques we were trained in were also used with adults, but in group home/institutional settings. There is not a model for doing it on the street. You can't just switch out cops for counselors. A new kind of skillset and training will need to be created, that is half counselor/half cop. Otherwise, as soon as a client says "fuck you" to a counselor, their ability to intervene is done.

[BehindBlueI's]

That is definitely a factor. My main point is that unless the mental health providers are trained and equipped to actually, physically intervene in a crisis, then police will have to be called anyways. In our schools where there were not trained staff, police were called on a regular basis. This put police in an impossible situation because they were being asked to go hands on with children in order to control non-criminal behavior, which is not what force is for. The techniques we were trained in were also used with adults, but in group home/institutional settings. There is not a model for doing it on the street. You can't just switch out cops for counselors. A new kind of skillset and training will need to be created, that is half counselor/half cop. Otherwise, as soon as a client says "fuck you" to a counselor, their ability to intervene is done.

I would be shocked, likely absolutely floored, if the policy for these folks allows any physical coercion. I already see it in group homes. They are not allowed to restrain or detain... which means they watch their "clients" run off and then call us for a missing person...

[DrkBlue]

That's what many of the reformers don't get -- even if the money was available, it's going to take time to build a pool of trained people for a new specialty.

I see it as being a bit like the start of EMS. Paramedics as we know them didn't exist until the early 70s.

Training might incorporate some elements of tactical EMS. Responders would need to be familiar with police work in dangerous situations.

My community started a street response mental health crisis effort almost 20 years ago. Basically mental health personnel, usually Masters level, mid career folks. Lots of personnel turnover, but also found some of the right people, who didn’t mind crappy hours and squatting in piss soaked carpets.

The dispatch protocol was law enforcement always made initial contact and triaged the level of mental health issue. Then the crisis responders came to the scene - marked, non-law enforcement-looking car. Often the mental health team would make referrals and then handle in-house follow up when not on a call. Also they would occasionally transport for voluntary commitments, which encouraged lots of frequent flyers to check themselves in. This approach always put LE making initial and continuous on scene risk assessments. It worked for us - and was hugely supported by rank-and-file coppers and the department brass. I believe the concepts of mental health on the street are totally valid, but, of course, not a complete solution.

Then again, the best law enforcement money I ever saw spent was an in-house social worker. Having a social worker as part of the juvenile and family crimes unit was awesome in breaking cycles. That was a model in the 1940-50s and I saw it working again the 1990s.

[AMC]

Sorry I'm late back to this. Working all day, then my night to do dinner when I got home. In response to the questions posed, I'm not sure if the department is tracking the number of these calls that are being reverted back to the PD. My guess would be not....the goal is "success" so that will be the outcome. No one in a decision making role has the courage to buck that tide.

As far as anyone asking rhe mental health folks what they thought of this model, I think you'd get a mixed bag there. Some very experienced folks would likely be "Not just no, HELL NO." Then there are the folks who have been eager to show the knuckle dragging cops that you CAN talk the 6'4" 250 lb psycho covered in their own shit into just calming down and talking through their problems.

The problem with this model is that it doesn't take into account scene safety, volatility, escalation by subjects, etc. The model mentioned by some where police responded to the initial call then called in the counselors is seen at the actual problem here. The police CAUSE the violence that sometimes happens. So scene safety as a model is explicitly out the window. Which leads to what we're seeing. Which will undoubtedly be hailed not only as a success, but a model for the nation. You're all welcome.

[gkieser92]

My community started a street response mental health crisis effort almost 20 years ago. Basically mental health personnel, usually Masters level, mid career folks. Lots of personnel turnover, but also found some of the right people, who didn’t mind crappy hours and squatting in piss soaked carpets.

The dispatch protocol was law enforcement always made initial contact and triaged the level of mental health issue. Then the crisis responders came to the scene - marked, non-law enforcement-looking car. Often the mental health team would make referrals and then handle in-house follow up when not on a call. Also they would occasionally transport for voluntary commitments, which encouraged lots of frequent flyers to check themselves in. This approach always put LE making initial and continuous on scene risk assessments. It worked for us - and was hugely supported by rank-and-file coppers and the department brass. I believe the concepts of mental health on the street are totally valid, but, of course, not a complete solution.

Then again, the best law enforcement money I ever saw spent was an in-house social worker. Having a social worker as part of the juvenile and family crimes unit was awesome in breaking cycles. That was a model in the 1940-50s and I saw it working again the 1990s.

This new paradigm has the goal of no police response at all. In this paradigm, the mere presence of police is inherently escalating, and the client must be protected from their presence. But police are currently the only governmental entity that is trained, equipped and authorized to to intervene when the people involved are capable of physical resistance. To take police out of the equation will require making EMS/mental health responders more like police, so there is a catch-22. For calls that have little/no likelihood of violence, a mental health professional is a good match. If the client escalates, police are called and now you have the exact situation you were trying to avoid anyway. There will be no change while there is a police/no police dichotomy.

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[lwt16]

Within the last few days, I have been called to two different scenes as a CIT officer.

First one: State ran facility for juveniles had not given a client his meds for three weeks. Naturally, the guy went off the rails and simply walked away from the facility to the nearest bus stop. He wasn't bothering anyone but the mental health folks went to the stop and then called us. I get there and ask why they haven't given him his meds. No real answer. So I ask if they can go get his meds and administer them to him and they say they won't have them for another five weeks minimum due to a dispute with another state as to who is going to foot the bill. I tell them that their negligence is not a police matter, tell the responding officers to check with our committal officer(s)/supervisor, and I leave wishing all involved the best of luck. Our command agrees with me and all PD leave the scene as the juvenile was 20 years of age, not a threat to himself or others, and the facility has the legal responsibility to handle their own business.

Second one: I get called to the local mental health facility similar to a group home. They have a client that just returned from the doctor's office and is having an out of character episode where he is violent and self harming. The paramedics are told by the hospital staff that they can't restrain until PD commits the guy. I tell them that this is different as he is a patient/client in a facility. They stonewall. I call the head guy at the PD and he confirms that it's on them to get their own staff to commit the guy. Me, my partner, three or four fire guys, two paramedics, two staff from the group home.......all just stand there while the guy calms down and they finally find their person that can commit the guy. She comes and asks the staff why they didn't page her per protocol. Nobody can answer her.

Huge huge waste of time.....to the tune of an hour plus....while real calls for service were popping up left and right in my zone. Eventually, someone will be getting raped or home invaded or their house is going to burn to the ground.....while us, fire, and paramedics are pussyfooting around with this nonsense.

My agency actually has a pretty good plan in place and is somewhat ahead of the game. The mental health and crisis workers are way behind the curve and are trying to do expensive solutions on the cheap. And even though there may be a hue and cry to de-fund the police, we sure are being called to more and more situations that are caused by these so called social fixers or they are making the call worse with their textbook approaches instead of real world solutions.

One year and six months away from leaving all of it behind me.....the Good Lord willing.

Regards.

[Kyle Reese]

The county executive and council are all in favor of social workers running mental health calls in Montgomery County, Maryland. While the Crisis Center has worked effectively with law enforcement in the past, "reimaging public safety" will continue with social worker response. They have been told to get on board or get out.

Giving ultimatums to people with a transferable skill-set always works out well, in my experience.


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[okie john]

Here’s how it’s working in Seattle.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...defunds-police


Okie John

[BehindBlueI's]

Here’s how it’s working in Seattle.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...defunds-police


Okie John

Out of respect for a dead woman who was, apparently, just trying to help people and make her community better I'll not voice the multitude of snarky bullshit dancing in my skull right now. What I will say is that this occurrence, this dead woman, will not be a speed bump in the road for the defund the police movement because it's a feature and not a bug. It's more anarchy, and that's the goal.

[DpdG]

Similar type of incident, but fortunately much better outcome:

Police and prosecutors say a social worker attempted to assist the man who fired shots in the Lee Market Place Saturday before authorities locked down the plaza.

A police affidavit filed in Strafford County Superior Court states the woman attempted to help Gordon Falt, 27, of Northeast Harbor, Maine, but backed away and called 911 because Falt allegedly told her he wanted to take her hostage.

https://www.fosters.com/story/news/2...elp/114445332/