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Thread: SF starts non-police behavioral response

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Thanatos View Post
    Death investigation is a state function. There are no national/federal death investigation systems, with the exception of the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner (OAFME).

    How your state's death investigation system functions is a combination of when it was founded, what changes were made over the years and how much money is involved.

    Most states in the original colonies, used the English legal system as a model. For a brief, but important digression (And I feel certian that someone here can explain this better, but that's not as important right now), the English legal system was a combination of a county system, with a Crown system. (Analogous to Local/State and Federal govt) The counties had a "County Manager" the Reeve, who was responsible for overall management of the county. (The Shire's Reeve is what got mutilated into Sheriff.) However, the King was not convinced he was getting all of his tax money, so he sent a representative to each county to make sure that the crown was getting all of it's taxes that were due. That guy was known as the "Crowner" Because faking death was not an uncommon method of tax evasion, the Crowner became responsible for ensuring that anyone who was dead, was in fact, really dead and not faking. Again, English is a rough language, and Crowner became Coroner. One of commonly known phrases it "The Coroner is the only person who can arrest the Sheriff." If you look back at the English legal system, that makes perfect sense, the coroner was a representative of the crown, and his authority superseded the Sheriff, but he then had to explain to the King why he did what he did. (In today's law enforcement environment, that job is handled by state or federal agencies. Even still, some states have the Coroner as the back-up Sheriff if something goes wrong.)


    When the english system was brought to the colonies, and then after the King was removed, the parallel nature of death investigation remained, with an elected coroner and Sheriff, but their functions changed. Depending on how the state's constitution reads, the coroner may be a constitutional officer or not, may be sworn law enforcement or not, and the requirements can vary wildly. You can see interesting variations across the country, In Texas the Justice of the Peace is responsible for death investigation, I believe Nebraska has the District Attorney combined with the Coroner and of course, California has the Sheriff/Coroner system.

    Medical Examiner's didn't come along until around the turn of the century when Boston decided that maybe, having a doctor look at the decedent's was a good idea. But that physician was not allowed to do any procedures to the deceased, nor any other testing. It was just a test to see if a Doctor as a coroner was a good idea. The first "Real" medical examiner's office was in New York City, during prohibition. The coroner in Manhattan was so corrupt and useless that the plan was to replace him with a physician who could actually investigate and discover the underlying cause of death. Three finalists were identified, and each performed an autopsy for the deciding committee. (I have no idea what the committee planned on doing with that information). Incidentally, the coroner arrested all three candidates, because he didn't give permission for them to touch the body.

    At any rate, the NYC-OCME rapidly became the model for both forensic pathology/death investigation and forensic toxicology. The book "The Poisoner's Handbook" is an interesting read about that era. There is also a PBS special which is different, but still interesting.

    There was a period of time in the 40-60s where states began to attempt to reform the coroner model of death investigation. Some abandoned the coroner and transitioned to the medical examiner system. A number of states raised the requirements for being a coroner (Ohio is a good example, the coroner must be a physician), and some places just left it alone.

    So History lesson aside, what does that mean for current death investigation.

    There are good coroner systems, there are bad coroner systems. There are good ME offices, there are bad ME offices. Usually the funding will tell you which one you are going to get. (Not always, but usually) The biggest issue I have with the elected coroner system is that they can't be fired, just not re-elected. And nobody, except for law-enforcement and the DA knows whether they are actually doing a good job. Coroner's who are appointed, have forensic pathologists that they work with, and good investigation teams can do a fabulous job. (Clark County, NV. Great coroner's office). Elected coroner's with no oversight, and small budgets, make for an easy way to miss problems. Coroner's with a basic conflict of interest seems like a bad idea to me. (California, Texas, Nebraska) Coroner's without sufficient training is a basic problem. For example, Do you want someone with one week of training to decide whether or not your loved one is a suicide, an accident or a homicide? Or what happens when the Sheriff calls all officer involved shootings accidents, because the officer really did want to kill them? Or maybe the DA would really like to prosecute someone, so he calls the death a homicide instead of an accident? None of these examples are imaginary.

    Death investigation suffers from population density issues. Metro areas with high case volumes, a dense population and a decent budget, the system works well. Rural areas with low case volumes, low population densities and no budget, it works poorly. This is primarily a funding issue. When I was in fellowship, NC was second lowest for per capita funding of their ME system, I think we collected 0.86$ per person in NC. Utah beat us, they only collected 0.85$ per person. In comparison, at the time, NM collected about 4.25$ a person. (This was quite a while ago.) So, baseline funding makes an enormous difference in the quality of the system; frequently, you actually get what you pay for.

    The shortage of certified forensic pathologists is a different and related problem. Forensic pathology has usually been referred to as the "only fellowship in medicine that guarantees your salary will go down." So you are adding 1-2 years of training for a job that decreases your salary by about half, compared to private practice pathologists. This is not a job that you take because you "didn't do well in school." Nor is it a job that you get stuck in because you "couldn't talk to patients." Those of us in the field do it because it is our calling, not for the paycheck. I think most public safety and public health related jobs are like that. And even then, there are more FP's retiring than there are starting. For every three FP fellows, only 2 will actually begin a career in forensic pathology, because either, they hated it (Either dealing with mortality every day, or dealing with feces from politicians, lawyers and other doctors), or they could make so much more money doing something else. So our shortages are only getting worse. I'm looking forward to a retirement gig of reviewing cases for phat loot. It's a ways off.

    So, to recap. Some coroner's are doctors, most are not. Ever single state is different, both for what types of deaths are handled by the death investigation system and who is responsible for doing the exam. Each state/county has different responsibilities and qualifications associated with the position. The requirements vary wildly. Some offices are good, typically ones with decent funding. Some offices are bad, usually poor ones, or when there is an inherent conflict of interest. And over the next 20-30 years, we're probably going to run out of physicians willing to do the job.

    Doc,

    The coroner being the only person who can arrest the Sheriff is no longer the case in GA, but an interesting carry over from English common law is that the office of the Sheriff carries forward all common law powers from England and through the colonial era unless specifically modified by statute. This is why Sheriffs and deputies have statewide jurisdiction in GA.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Doc,

    The coroner being the only person who can arrest the Sheriff is no longer the case in GA, but an interesting carry over from English common law is that the office of the Sheriff carries forward all common law powers from England and through the colonial era unless specifically modified by statute. This is why Sheriffs and deputies have statewide jurisdiction in GA.
    Yeah. I wasn't planning on it happening anytime soon. I'd just call the GBI.

    GA specifically nixed the idea that the coroner should be a constitutional officer a while back. So, I don't think they are going to get a legislator to carry that water for them.

    SC coroners are constitutional officers, are sworn LE, and have arrest powers. They do not have to be POST certified for any of this.

    In NC, even with the basic elimination of the coroner for the medical examiner system, the Cleveland county coroner had to stand in for the Sheriff for 3 days between the no longer elected sheriff resignation and the new sheriff's induction. He was smart, and let the Chief Deputy run things. (Which, as @jlw will tell you, is usually the best answer.)

    For others, In GA, the requirements for being a coroner are that you not have a felony arrest, that you are over 25, that you live in the county for which you want to be the coroner, and that you can get elected. That's it. Afterwards, the coroner's council will give you a whole week (40 hours) of training, and set you free to do your job. Let's just say, there are counties that no one would ever know that a homicide had been committed, unless the local PD/SO were on the ball. (Which, fortunately, they usually are.)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Thanatos View Post

    Death investigation suffers from population density issues. Metro areas with high case volumes, a dense population and a decent budget, the system works well. Rural areas with low case volumes, low population densities and no budget, it works poorly...
    Doc,
    First off, thanks for an incredibly interesting read. That was great.

    And, second, I have a buddy who—in addition to being a music community colleague—is a city attorney. I’m hesitant to name the city, for reasons that will be come apparent, but it’s in my state. At any rate, at a festival one year, the 4 of us, me, him, and our spouses, are all having dinner, and somehow the topic turns to the first dead guy he had to certify, or whatever it’s called when the coroner pronounces. I’m going “wait, back the truck up...why in the hell was that your problem???”

    Turns out, in WA, that MEs evidently get funded in part by the state, and at the time, cities had to have permanent populations of more than 40k to qualify for a permanent local ME. Sound about right? So, anyways, the gig fell to him, as the then-new city atty. I know this guy is a respected law guy, and we’ve hired each other for concert series, so I also know he can play in a chamber ensemble, but ME duty? “So, did you have any training, or...?” I ask.

    “None whatsoever. It was every bit as as weird as you think; I’m in this motel bathroom—the kind with doors that open to the parking lot, looking at Mr. dead guy—my first. I’m with the responding cop going ‘looks dead to me, I guess, how about you...?”

    He went on to say that he was very relieved the year that the census finally showed that the little town had grown more than enough to qualify for a local ME position. His response to my asking if there was any possibility that some hinky causes of death slipped through the cracks during those early days in previous decades was “Oh, it’s way possible, beyond a doubt. We just did the best we could at the time.”

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Thanatos View Post
    Yeah. I wasn't planning on it happening anytime soon. I'd just call the GBI.

    GA specifically nixed the idea that the coroner should be a constitutional officer a while back. So, I don't think they are going to get a legislator to carry that water for them.

    SC coroners are constitutional officers, are sworn LE, and have arrest powers. They do not have to be POST certified for any of this.

    In NC, even with the basic elimination of the coroner for the medical examiner system, the Cleveland county coroner had to stand in for the Sheriff for 3 days between the no longer elected sheriff resignation and the new sheriff's induction. He was smart, and let the Chief Deputy run things. (Which, as @jlw will tell you, is usually the best answer.)

    For others, In GA, the requirements for being a coroner are that you not have a felony arrest, that you are over 25, that you live in the county for which you want to be the coroner, and that you can get elected. That's it. Afterwards, the coroner's council will give you a whole week (40 hours) of training, and set you free to do your job. Let's just say, there are counties that no one would ever know that a homicide had been committed, unless the local PD/SO were on the ball. (Which, fortunately, they usually are.)

    GA law now makes the Chief Deputy the acting Sheriff if the Sheriff dies or resigns.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Thanatos View Post
    For others, In GA, the requirements for being a coroner are that you not have a felony arrest, that you are over 25, that you live in the county for which you want to be the coroner, and that you can get elected. That's it. Afterwards, the coroner's council will give you a whole week (40 hours) of training, and set you free to do your job. Let's just say, there are counties that no one would ever know that a homicide had been committed, unless the local PD/SO were on the ball. (Which, fortunately, they usually are.)
    Oddly enough, the ability to tell the difference between deer and human bones is not a qualification.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Oddly enough, the ability to tell the difference between deer and human bones is not a qualification.
    LOL!

    Brief backstory, I used to work at the place where the GA coroner's got their autopsies done. During that time, @jlw's county coroner sent in some deer bones that had been found in a former graveyard area in some woods. Of course, it was a friday afternoon, and I was the only one in house. Forensic anthropology isn't truly my specialty, especially comparative osteology, but I was sure they weren't human, and suggested that he release the scene and we'd get an actual ID for him in the morning. His plan was to get help from the local (large) university's anthropology department and dig up the entire graveyard to see if there were more human bones there. I'll pause for a second to completely take that in. Dig up a graveyard to see if there are human bones. Just to be clear, he wanted to do this even after we told him they were deer bones.

    Thankfully, he didn't go through with it. I think several (many) people had to suggest to him how bad of an idea this would be.

  7. #67
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    Since we're talking about odd police powers, and the thread is already at maximum drift: I've been listening to a podcast about a Dixie mafia dude named Billy Sunday Birt who ended up on death row. Apparently, up until the 90s or so a sheriff could just go check a prisoner out, even from death row, and take him wherever. (The sheriff who helped put him away would take him for "questioning" but really to visit his family).
    To be clear this was a career criminal with probably dozens of murders to his name.

    Actually@jlw would probably know more about how true it is, this was in GA.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Thanatos View Post
    LOL!

    Brief backstory, I used to work at the place where the GA coroner's got their autopsies done. During that time, @jlw's county coroner sent in some deer bones that had been found in a former graveyard area in some woods. Of course, it was a friday afternoon, and I was the only one in house. Forensic anthropology isn't truly my specialty, especially comparative osteology, but I was sure they weren't human, and suggested that he release the scene and we'd get an actual ID for him in the morning. His plan was to get help from the local (large) university's anthropology department and dig up the entire graveyard to see if there were more human bones there. I'll pause for a second to completely take that in. Dig up a graveyard to see if there are human bones. Just to be clear, he wanted to do this even after we told him they were deer bones.

    Thankfully, he didn't go through with it. I think several (many) people had to suggest to him how bad of an idea this would be.
    You sure he didn't make a pitch to the local anthropologists? That would have been an interesting meeting.
    REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
    REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
    NO EXCEPTIONS

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickA View Post
    Since we're talking about odd police powers, and the thread is already at maximum drift: I've been listening to a podcast about a Dixie mafia dude named Billy Sunday Birt who ended up on death row. Apparently, up until the 90s or so a sheriff could just go check a prisoner out, even from death row, and take him wherever. (The sheriff who helped put him away would take him for "questioning" but really to visit his family).
    To be clear this was a career criminal with probably dozens of murders to his name.

    Actually@jlw would probably know more about how true it is, this was in GA.
    A charmer, evidently: https://patch.com/georgia/barrow/feb...more-wont-hurt
    REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
    REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
    NO EXCEPTIONS

  10. #70
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    Just to update this thread, the practice of sending crisis counselors or mental health "experts" has begun here. I've asked several officers how it's going in the field. They weren't sure how to respond, since they haven't seen these folks out there. There seems to be very few of them (because of course), but the cops have responded to calls they've 'redirected' back to the PD. The only time any of the officers I've spoken saw one of these folks was as the guy literally ran PAST them, pointing over his shoulder and yelling "He's back there!" He then jumped in his vehicle and fles the scene. Didn't return when requested by the officers. So .....off to a good start.

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