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Thread: Extended arms (not locked) vs Bent Arms

  1. #11
    It's not only extended vs bent, it's also down vs out.

    Elbows out makes less muzzle flip compared to elbows down (according to my observation). Because if the elbows are at the outside, they can work better as shock absorbers. With elbows at the outside, the hands can move back easier. With elbows down, the hands can only move up (more precisely: if the elbows are down, then at the beginning of the recoil the hands are more forced to move up).

    My elbows are quite bent and more at the outside than down.
    Last edited by P30; 10-17-2020 at 04:42 AM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by P30 View Post
    It's not only extended vs bent, it's also down vs out.

    Elbows out makes less muzzle flip compared to elbows down (according to my observation). Because if the elbows are at the outside, they can work better as shock absorbers. With elbows at the outside, the hands can move back easier. With elbows down, the hands can only move up (more precisely: if the elbows are down, then at the beginning of the recoil the hands are more forced to move up).

    My elbows are quite bent and more at the outside than down.
    Thank you sir.


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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post

    For dynamic shooting, especially coming from the draw I prefer Bent arms. If you draw to fully extended arms I find the momentum causes a little “bounce” which actually slows me down.
    Ron Avery taught that you should end your punch out with as much force as you would use to push a doorbell. The imagery helps decelerate the gun enough to prvent the bounce. He used to refer to a hard punch out coming to a sudden stop as causing your gun to act like a tuning fork as it tried to stabilize.

    pat

  4. #14
    The progression from locked elbows and tactical turtle to bent elbows and a more upright posture has been ongoing in the higher end of the shooting community as more people have (finally) taken a sports oriented approach to shooting. For the longest time, shooting was the only athletic endeavor that ignored athleticism. People had this idea that when you had a gun in your hands the human body would somehow behave differently than in any other sport. Thankfully, we're getting away from that.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Think about what you are doing kinesthetically & ergonomically, you are using strength, dexterity and visual acuity. Based on your body type and what works for you, you have to find the proper balance of all three. Look at the extremes gun too close v. full extension both are poor in one or more respect. The sweet spot lies in-between. You goal is to find the intersection where you maximize Power, Vision & Control. Typically this intersection lies where you have what is referred to as a natural bend in your elbow.

    If someone hands you something you extend your arm to a preset natural position that has a bent elbow. If you reach to pick something up you you typically have that same bend in your elbow. This is a natural position your body is accustomed to performing tasks. It also happens to be a good location for controlling recoil, seeing sights and manipulating your weapon.

  6. #16
    I've received instruction in three varieties of Isoceles stance, starting with locked elbows, then elbows down, now onto bent elbows/elbows out. Under stress I just bring the gun up and go to work, not thinking about anything but sights and trigger. My dept instructor like @HCM recently took three modern samurai classes and raves about them, so that is the instruction my PD is getting now. It definitely seems to make sense.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    Think about what you are doing kinesthetically & ergonomically, you are using strength, dexterity and visual acuity. Based on your body type and what works for you, you have to find the proper balance of all three. Look at the extremes gun too close v. full extension both are poor in one or more respect. The sweet spot lies in-between. You goal is to find the intersection where you maximize Power, Vision & Control. Typically this intersection lies where you have what is referred to as a natural bend in your elbow.

    If someone hands you something you extend your arm to a preset natural position that has a bent elbow. If you reach to pick something up you you typically have that same bend in your elbow. This is a natural position your body is accustomed to performing tasks. It also happens to be a good location for controlling recoil, seeing sights and manipulating your weapon.
    I will try finding this Sweet spot by way of hanging my jacket two handed.
    Thanks sir.

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  8. #18
    Site Supporter _JD_'s Avatar
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    When I took Langdon's ATH some years ago he was teaching bent elbows slightly out for better recoil control, and long term joint health.

    The tactical community didn't like that as your elbows can lead you around corners etc.

    So as always situation is going to dictate some tactics.

    From a pure shooting standpoint bent elbows is probably better than locked arms.

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Williams View Post
    I've received instruction in three varieties of Isoceles stance, starting with locked elbows, then elbows down, now onto bent elbows/elbows out. Under stress I just bring the gun up and go to work, not thinking about anything but sights and trigger. My dept instructor like @HCM recently took three modern samurai classes and raves about them, so that is the instruction my PD is getting now. It definitely seems to make sense.
    It’s funny how much the bent arm shooting looks like what you do when you just bring the gun up and shoot as well as the original weaver stance.

    Shooting lots of 40 with locked elbows is a good way to have elbow pain

    The freestyle isosceles used an action shooting has always had a slight bend to the elbow. As near as I can figure the locked elbow in LE training seems to be an artifact of PPC.

    One of the things I really like about the dot is it provides so much more visual feedback about what is really going on with the gun. Drawing quickly to a full arm extension versus drawing quickly to a bent arm position the difference in movement is clearly visible.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Ron Avery taught that you should end your punch out with as much force as you would use to push a doorbell. The imagery helps decelerate the gun enough to prvent the bounce. He used to refer to a hard punch out coming to a sudden stop as causing your gun to act like a tuning fork as it tried to stabilize.

    pat
    Scott Reitz taught me something similar 15 plus years ago, it’s not new, you can just see it clearly with a dot on the gun.

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