Contact tracing is a thing. And my wife was killed by a person who knowingly came in close contact with her while they had the flu and went to a party anyways.Originally Posted by TheNewbie
The ethical choice is to take reasonable precautions to prevent infecting others. With Covid, we don’t always know when we are infectious so we should take basic precautions.
Ken
BBI: ...”you better not forget the safe word because shit's about to get weird”...
revchuck38: ...”mo' ammo is mo' betta' unless you're swimming or on fire.”
My deepest condolences for the loss of your wife. If I’m sick I stay at home, as should others.
I just don’t think the government should be getting involved because more harm than good will be done that way.
I fear big government and locked down/fearful society more than any virus.
Responded in line.
The 200,000 is questionable, because many of those people were so sick anyway. Did covid kill them or how sick they were? How many did of covid vs died with covid? How many were mislabeled as Covid?
Additionally, we have effective treatments that are not being used enough. It’s not the fault of an innocent person who just wants to open their business, go about their normal life, or not wear a mask that people are often not given proper care.
The reason it matters is because the more you regulate, the more power you give to government. Big government is much more dangerous than a virus.
My argument about masks are not political. I’ve stated them many times on the forum.
What is most unbelievable to me, and to anyone who knows me, is that I am the one arguing that people are too freaked out over germs. Usually it’s me and my germ OCD. The Wuhan Virus has ironically helped me with my tendency towards germ OCD.
If I believed the virus was the biggest threat, then obviously I would argue for whatever measures were necessary to deal with it. My belief is that the virus pales in comparison to other threats we face, including the lockdown and non use of HCQ.
It scares me that some Americans want to live in a world where you can be held criminally liable because you left the house sick. While I agree, in most cases, you’re an asshole if you go to work sick, and I’m ok with you being fired for doing so, getting the government involved is stepping into dangerous territory.
I wash my hands, don’t go out sick, try to put others first, clean up after myself when I can, and try to be a decent person. This is how I act and how I acted prior to covid.
So many “experts” disagree, that I think it’s time to leave it up to the individual. Besides, too much faith is placed in experts.
My understanding is that only about 9,000 of those deaths were solely attributed to COVID. Now, if the virus aggravated a condition that otherwise would not have been fatal at that point in time, then that is reasonable to list COVID as the cause of death. However, I have read about people with COVID dying in a car accident and having the cause of death listed as COVID. Furthermore, Pennsylvania was (and possibly still is) double-counting some nursing home deaths. If the deceased was a resident of a county different from the nursing home, the death was counted as a death for each of the two counties. I have seen so much manipulation of the case numbers (counting probably cases as actual cases when most tests are negative, and counting positive antibody tests as cases) that I take the death numbers with a bucket of salt.
Regarding masks, I wear them, and advocate that others wear them. They have always been known to work, and specific incidents of masks protecting numerous people from COVID have been documented. To my dismay, I have friends who make political arguments against wearing them, or who make poorly-reasoned "scientific" arguments against wearing them. Here is the political reality: if we want to avoid an anti-gun president next year, we need to control COVID, and that means wearing masks. On the other hand, I personally know people who have legitimate health reasons for not wearing a mask, and in these instances they need to be able to make their own choices.
I do favor and have always favored reasonable precautions. However, some of the actions taken early in the pandemic (business shutdowns that did not include the governor's own 350 person business, ordering nursing homes to accept COVID+ patients and creating national catastropes) were so obviously not motivated by intelligence or good intentions that I completely understand why some are having a hard time taking other precautions seriously. We were initially lied to about masks to prevent people from buying up the supply that health care workers needed, but after the lie, who is surprised that people do not believe the truth that masks work.
Last edited by BillSWPA; 10-12-2020 at 08:17 PM.
At this point I'm pretty confident I don't need to rehash all my arguments that have been in multiple other Covid threads.
Suffice it to say that I think there is a reasonable role for government to play in dealing with a pandemic, and I am also aware that things can go too far and/or be done badly.
Peace, y'all.
Maybe you should just rugged individual yourself into the mountains where you can remove yourself from society and do as you please. Until then, as a member of society, you should take precautions that tend to 1) make it safer for society; and/or 2) placate the fears of fellow members of society.
I don't enjoy wearing the mask, but I do whenever I go out into public, because you know, others. When I go to shoots, I take masks, if I see people I'm squadded with wearing masks, I will wear mine as a courtesy to them. If I'm sick, I won't go out.
In my book, that's called being a member of society.
You my friend, are the reason that I'm canceling my subscription to Reason.
As a business owner, the government tells me I have to do a lot more than simply wear a mask when I go out. A partial list includes:
I have to clean frequently (I do so every time a client visits).
I have to require visitors to wear a mask unless they have a medical reason why they cannot.
I have to keep track of and follow ever-changing CDC and state health department guidelines.
If someone comes into my office with COVID, a bunch of other requirements kick in.
I have no objection to any of that. Reasonable regulation and reasonable precautions are fine.
I do have a problem with watching other business owners who were more directly affected by the shutdown continue to pay thousands a month in fixed costs while unable to operate, in some cases going out of business, while others on government checks ask "what is so hard about just staying home" and while those in power keep their own non-essential businesses open.
I have a problem with so-called "experts" focusing on one aspect of health while completely disregarding other aspects of health and the full ramifications of the actions they advocate.
I have a problem with the idea that just because someone calls something "science" we are supposed to accept that it has an actual scientific basis.
I have a problem with politicians making a crisis worse than it already is in order to push personal or political agendas rather than looking for actual, workable long-term solutions. One solution would have been facilitating voluntary isolation for vulnerable individuals and making arrangements through volunteer or business efforts to make sure they have what they need. Instead we successfully isolated (some of) the healthy, and exposed the vulnerable in nursing homes.
I have a problem with the idea of trading essential liberty for temporary safety, which is a trade far too many are willing to make.
Why are you cancelling based on me? I do not work for them. Hell, I don’t even read them. If I’m correct, Reason is a libertarian magazine. They would probably have issues with my views on life.
Why don’t you and those who are pro restriction and shutdown move to the mountains? I’m pretty much a live and let live kinda guy, but many are not. They want to control people’s lives based on their fears, which are of questionable accuracy.
As I’ve mentioned countless times, I will wear a mask, and long before covid, I tried to avoid going out of sick. The first I do because of what I think is corona insanity, the latter because of common courtesy.
Sometimes I would prefer to go to the mountains. I love people, but the herd mentality stinks. However, running away is not the answer. At least not now.
It is not my belief that you shouldn’t be able to wear a mask. It’s not my belief that you shouldn’t be able to stay home. If a business wants to require me to wear a mask, that is their right.
If you’re sick stay home. Hopefully it didn’t take the my sharona to have that basic value.
My worry is less for me, and more for my country. I’m largely unaffected by the mask thing, except when I go to the store. My gym is just me and I don’t have to wear one to eat.
It’s not just about me. It’s very little about me.
You probably don’t have your views because you only care about you. I’m sure you’re doing it because you think it’s best for society. We just disagree on what’s best. I bet you and I both would inconvenience ourselves on behalf of what we think is right.
The mask thing is a minor thing anyway. Growing government control and less people working is a more concerning issue.
There are just too many differing experts to have such damaging policy.
Many great points. To your last point.
I tend to agree when Dennis Prager says Liberty is not a desire, but a value. Liberty has to be learned, earned and taught. People desire to be taken care, especially if all they have to trade in is something you have to work for.
Now there are varying degrees of the above, but in general, most people prefer security to liberty.
The valuing of liberty above security made much of America different (in a good way) for a very long time. I’m not sure that’s true anymore.
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