One Dead After Shooting at Protest in Denver

[HCM]

Assuming the shooter was a lawfully contracted private security guard, which is doubtful, the same laws that apply to citizens apply to private security. We can use the elements of self defense Andrew Branca discusses to analyze the use of force decision. They are Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, Avoidance, and Reasonableness. Innocence has to do with who is the aggressor. I have not seen a video of the actual incident going down, so I do not know how it started. On the face of it, OC spray vs. gun does not hold muster at passing the elements of self defense. If any one of the elements is not present, the justification for self defense is lacking for a private citizen. Right off the bat, using deadly force against someone merely OC spraying you does not appear to be a proportional use of force. It is not only a matter of lethal vs. less lethal force. I have been both tazed and pepper sprayed. As a part of training when getting pepper sprayed, you usually have to show you can work through problems, fight through it, apply handcuffs, possibly fire marking cartridges etc. Pepper spray is annoying, but easy to fight through. Getting tazed on the other hand is entirely different. If it weren't for the 2 guys on each side of me, I would have face planted and been taken out of the fight for the 5 seconds of fun after getting tazed. Pepper spray me though and that would just piss me off. Yes, my eyes wanted to close shut and it was an annoying pain, but I could see well enough to fight. Out of my class, I was affected worse than most, so it was not a case of it having not much of an effect on me, like on some people.

If someone is deploying OC spray on you, it would be difficult at best to argue your life is in imminence risk of death or serious bodily injury. I think most people (i.e. jurors) would not consider gun vs. OC spray to be a reasonable use of force. Innocence and Avoidance are also questionable in this case, but I do not have enough information. Thus, with the limited information available, if it were a case of gun vs. OC spray, the incident appears to fail multiple elements for a claim of a citizens justified use of deadly force (i.e. shooting). In fact, it may be the case that it fails every single element.

You lost me at Andrew Branca.

[DrkBlue]

My UOF instructors were more nuanced - it’s not a blanket license to shoot - as it’s going to be hard to justify stitching up a little old lady with a lipstick sized CS spray from 20 feet away when you a couple of other officers as backup with you, but your point stands. One reason why we are sprayed in training is so you can articulate why you knew you needed to use force when CS was used or about to be used on you. You can say that you have first-hand experience with just how debilitating the spray is. (Of course, you are also taught you can fight through the effects of the spray and still function. We had to run this little maze/obstacle course right after being sprayed.)

This is were the defense counsel earns some of its money, probably with a UOF expert witness to explain to the jury why getting slapped and bear sprayed by 270 lb (possibly armed) biker necessitated deadly force.

I am sidestepping the invigorating discussion on Space Invader symbology...

What role does have a police tactical team 15 yards away play? I am serious in the query, as Rocky made a good point to the reasonableness.

I have walked down that particular sidewalk a few years ago, which is a pretty narrow funnel. Clearly there were a large number of police officers in a close proximity, which was demonstrated in the video from the scene. The officers were there in matter of seconds, not exceeding 30 seconds. In a close protection role and under some type of threat, does that change the response, responsibility and legal scenario?

My intent is not make a prosecution case, but it seemed shooting was an escalation out of proportion to a minor physical contact against a similarly sized opponent. The now-Defendant can argue otherwise, but what is your read on totality of circumstances?

[RJ]

Assuming the shooter was a lawfully contracted private security guard...

Might be tinfoil hat stuff, but it appears opinions vary as to whether Mr. Doloff was, or was not, a licensed security guard. This video seems to cite an open source database that he was not. Thoughts?

[HCM]

I am sidestepping the invigorating discussion on Space Invader symbology...

What role does have a police tactical team 15 yards away play? I am serious in the query, as Rocky made a good point to the reasonableness.

I have walked down that particular sidewalk a few years ago, which is a pretty narrow funnel. Clearly there were a large number of police officers in a close proximity, which was demonstrated in the video from the scene. The officers were there in matter of seconds, not exceeding 30 seconds. In a close protection role and under some type of threat, does that change the response, responsibility and legal scenario?

My intent is not make a prosecution case, but it seemed shooting was an escalation out of proportion to a minor physical contact against a similarly sized opponent. The now-Defendant can argue otherwise, but what is your read on totality of circumstances?

There has been violence at several protests and counter protests in the Denver area including shootings. An event with left-wing and right wing partisans coming together, many of whom are likely to be armed makes having a Tactical team on standby a no brainer. Another consideration is that in some departments certain types of riot control munitions and less lethal are restricted to tactical teams.

[GJM]

Apparently not licensed in Denver.

https://nypost.com/2020/10/11/denver...ecurity-guard/

[TC215]

Might be tinfoil hat stuff, but it appears opinions vary as to whether Mr. Doloff was, or was not, a licensed security guard. This video seems to cite an open source database that he was not. Thoughts?

From TheBlaze:

The Denver Post is reporting that the Denver Department of Excise and Licenses have no record of Dolloff having a license to work as a private security guard in the city, according to spokesperson Eric Escudero.

"We do not currently have an active license and have never had an active license for anybody with that name," Escudero said. "If he was operating as a security guard, he was in violation of the law.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/denver...atriot-photos-

[Suvorov]

Show me where I defended the shooter?


I said your logical reasoning sucked. You proved it again when you said I defended the shooter. You probably will make assumptions about this post. You are O for 3 already.

All right dude - you win!

My points were simply speculation and I never stated them to be anything but that. You are also correct - you did not defend the shooter per say, but you certainly attacked anyone who speculated there may be more here, you certainly seem emotionally attached to this thread. Yes - there is a fine line between speculation and derp, also welcome to the internet, but you point is taken. As @HCM pointed out - my curiosity of the gun the shooter was using was also unfounded.

I will refrain from any more speculative comments and let the adults handle it from here.

[HCM]

Might be tinfoil hat stuff, but it appears opinions vary as to whether Mr. Doloff was, or was not, a licensed security guard. This video seems to cite an open source database that he was not. Thoughts?

As was mentioned up thread, Pinkerton may well have subcontracted the assignment for news9 To someone else. Given the search in the video showed only five licensed security guards for Pinkerton in the entire city of Denver. Could he have been licensed by the state of Colorado? The county? Another city? Most places license security guards be at the state not a city.

If the shooter was not properly licensed it is likely he was still subcontracted through Pinkerton and unknown third-party.

That raises another question regarding the Colorado laws covering security guards. In Texas armed security guards may only work uniformed security jobs under a level III security guard license. Working an armed plainclothes security job such as PSD for a news crew would be restricted to peace officers working off duty and licensed private investigators.

I’ve always suspected those restrictions had something to do with preserving off-duty employment opportunities for peace officers but it is what it is.

So the question is what is the legal requirement to work such a job in Colorado? Is it a security guard license?

[Borderland]

"Good point. I'd have handled it differently. Let me grab my shotgun..."

Why don't more people carry SD shotguns to those protests? It would certainly be better for the blood and guts sensational media coverage. Blood streaming from combatants faces and limbs in mass. Bird shot is the answer.

[HCM]

When a guy is pointing gun at you, why you spray pepper spray on him???
That's just down right stupid.
Yes, the guy may not shoot but no need to take a chance.
Was it worth it???

Based on available evidence that is not what happened.

In the still photos It appears the deceased slapped the shooter hard enough to knock off his hat and glasses, The shooter did not appear to have a gun out at that time.

The deceased appears to have been wearing a very poorly concealed handgun on his right side.

The admittedly limited video reveals OC being sprayed followed immediately by a shot.

The likely scenario from the currently available evidence is deceased slaps the shooter then reaches for his waistband to draw the OC, the shooter sees him reaching for his waistband and makes a decision to draw. The shooter sees the deceased pull something from his waistband and point it at him. If the shooter had it in his mind that the deceased was going for a gun he may not have recognized that it was OC spray until it was too late.

You can read more about reaction time and how/why it can take time to recognize changed conditions and stop shooting here:

https://www.lexipol.com/resources/bl...stop-shooting/