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Thread: Tips to Deal with Offset

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Beat Trash View Post
    Up close, I taught to put the dot on the hairline if I want the rounds to go into the bridge of the nose. Would practice this by having a pad of the square (3”?) post it notes in my pocket. Put a post it note on the target where the rounds should go. Then have them put 3 rounds in the post it note on the command to fire.

    They usually would forget everything about offset on the first run. I’d ask them to say, “hairline, hairline, hairline” to themselves as they do the next run on the drill. Usually worked out much better.

    To the OP, short answer to your question In my opinion is to practice on a consistent basis.
    This is very true. My squad had a shooting in the summer of 2019. One of my officers shot a suspect at 15 yards with his AR and put the dot even with the guys brow line. He didn't take into account for the offset and sent two rounds into the guys upper lip and mouth. It blew out what few teeth the suspect already had. If you're within shouting distance it's best to aim for the very top of the head if you're trying to turn his lights off.

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  2. #22
    Site Supporter EricM's Avatar
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    I do think you'll adapt to it, but I've also never approached rifle shooting with the goal of hitting a 1" circle at close range. Sounds like a good challenge though. The way I looked at it, a fist-sized group at any given distance would be fine for defensive purposes. Up close, that dispersion would be due to speed and not perfectly accounting for offset. As distance increased, the effect of offset would decrease while other things like a stable shooting platform became more important.

    I shot a few 3 gun matches that used clays hanging from clips or placed in cutouts on cardboard for close-range rifle targets, so 4" targets generally between 5-25 yards. I just stuck with my usual 100 yard zero, but I recall someone telling me that the top shooters dialed in a close-range zero for those stages (other stages had 100-300 yard steel). It would be interesting to put it on a timer to see how much accounting for offset at close range makes a difference -- beyond evaluating the required offset, I imagine it's faster and more reliable to center a dot on something than place it a couple inches above. I also suspect it might be harder/slower to account for offset aiming at a small circle vs. aiming at the "forehead" of something like a USPSA target or Q-PT, even if you produce a comparable group both ways. Is using a reference point on the target faster than using a reference point in the reticle? Lots to experiment with to better understand the human factors and measure progress in training.

    If range time is short and you feel like throwing some money at it, you might consider a SIRT STIC rifle (these guys may ship faster than the 4-5 weeks mentioned by NLT). Insert a regular G17-style SIRT in there, put a cheap red dot on top, and dry fire all over your house/property with instant feedback on POA vs POI. You could use a picatinny riser to simulate the extra height over bore of the PS90, or set up the take-up laser with a different POI than the shot-break laser to approximate the different offset.

  3. #23
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    Seems like the case is closed already but I'll never forget the advice one experienced friend of mine gave me: "up close, I put the dot on the hairline and the bullet is right above the eyebrows."

    Of course instead of having to compensate for mechanical offset, now you're stuck compensating for male pattern baldness. Still, I can't look at a photo target up close with an AR without hearing that advice in my head.
    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

  4. #24
    I've made the move to the 2.26" optic heights. It takes some readjusting to. It's only half an inch over the 1/3 co-witness, but it still matters

  5. #25
    If you're zeroed at 50 yards, with most 14-16" ARs, you'll be about 2" low at 10 yards.

    Just learn your holds, train, and rock on.

    If we're talking practical defensive shooting, you're not trying to hit a 1" circle, you're trying to put down a threat.

    Top of head for a face shot, base of neck for high COM. Train, repeat.

    The real dumbassery is guys who zero dead nuts on at 10 yards, and can't hit crap at 100. Pure sad, but folks have done it for real.

  6. #26
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWR View Post


    If I could ever remember to use it...
    You just have train for it. Inside 15 yards I always snap to the bottom of the circle. Fast and accurate.
    _______________
    "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am. Send me." - Isaiah 6:8

  7. #27
    I grant that would be one of the few true advantages of an Eotech.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter stomridertx's Avatar
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    Offset up close just something I try to train and ingrain into my muscle memory. With The Eotech reticle and some etched reticles on LPVOs you can usually find a corresponding holdover point in the reticle, but I'm not yet convinced that under stress in up close shooting one would think to use the reticle holdover hash mark and would be using the center of the reticle. Reticle hash marks tend to work better for distance holdover when you have time in my opinion. When I took on the project of designing my own training targets to print out at home last year, I purposefully put 2.5 inch height over bore aiming points on the target on the head and upper thoracic area to help ingrain this into my shooting. I now find myself doing it consistently when I switch to more obscure target without them. Funnily enough, now that I'm just starting to use red dots on pistols for the first time I find I'm having to learn a new offset for both the dot and suppressor height sights on my Glock 19, even though it is not as much.
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  9. #29
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomridertx View Post
    . . .but I'm not yet convinced that under stress in up close shooting one would think to use the reticle holdover hash mark and would be using the center of the reticle.
    I'm convinced, because I've seen what happens with students at our academy with just the mild stress of "shooting for their job." Despite years of trying to get it changed, our syllabus doesn't include using the bottom of the EOTech circle for offset. So when they actually get to live fire all they've heard is "hold the dot two and a half inches high." On the line in live fire I will frequently see students struggle to make fast/accurate headshots at the 7 and 5 yard line. As soon as they are told about using the bottom of the reticle, suddenly they are quick and accurate. When I'm helping at the Academy I always let them try "holding high" then show them the bottom of the reticle "trick," and tell them to use whatever they like best.

    Where things get really interesting is when we start shooting from "unusual" positions, such as leaning out from cover/concealment, so the shooter is at 30-45 degree angle to the target, or lying on their sides (90 degree angle to the target) shooting under an obstacle (like shooting under a car). Then the rare student who chose to stay with "holding high" (and was getting good hits), starts struggling. A reminder about the bottom of the reticle "trick" suddenly has them back to making fast/accurate hits.

    Reticle hash marks tend to work better for distance holdover when you have time in my opinion.
    Have you run any tests on a timer? If so, have you done it when not "square up" to the target, such as in the "unusual" positions I mentioned above? I have, and several I work with have. The timer and targets don't lie, and using the bottom of the reticle yields faster and more accurate shots at short ranges, especially when doing shooting in unusual positions. The shooter doesn't have to worry about vertical and horizontal alignment, especially when at an odd angle to the target, they merely need to put the hash mark at the bottom of the circle where they want the rounds to go.

    Both, methods require the shooter to think about their distance to the target. However, the bottom of the reticle "trick" eliminates having to process other aspects of the shooters relationship to the target.

    If "holding high" is working for you, great, but I've seen enough evidence to show that under even a little bit of stress, and especially in situations where you're not "squared up" to the target, the bottom of the reticle on the EOTech style reticle is a much faster and more accurate method of accounting for offset at short distances.
    _______________
    "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am. Send me." - Isaiah 6:8

  10. #30
    Site Supporter stomridertx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF13 View Post
    I'm convinced, because I've seen what happens with students at our academy with just the mild stress of "shooting for their job." Despite years of trying to get it changed, our syllabus doesn't include using the bottom of the EOTech circle for offset. So when they actually get to live fire all they've heard is "hold the dot two and a half inches high." On the line in live fire I will frequently see students struggle to make fast/accurate headshots at the 7 and 5 yard line. As soon as they are told about using the bottom of the reticle, suddenly they are quick and accurate. When I'm helping at the Academy I always let them try "holding high" then show them the bottom of the reticle "trick," and tell them to use whatever they like best.

    Where things get really interesting is when we start shooting from "unusual" positions, such as leaning out from cover/concealment, so the shooter is at 30-45 degree angle to the target, or lying on their sides (90 degree angle to the target) shooting under an obstacle (like shooting under a car). Then the rare student who chose to stay with "holding high" (and was getting good hits), starts struggling. A reminder about the bottom of the reticle "trick" suddenly has them back to making fast/accurate hits.

    Have you run any tests on a timer? If so, have you done it when not "square up" to the target, such as in the "unusual" positions I mentioned above? I have, and several I work with have. The timer and targets don't lie, and using the bottom of the reticle yields faster and more accurate shots at short ranges, especially when doing shooting in unusual positions. The shooter doesn't have to worry about vertical and horizontal alignment, especially when at an odd angle to the target, they merely need to put the hash mark at the bottom of the circle where they want the rounds to go.

    Both, methods require the shooter to think about their distance to the target. However, the bottom of the reticle "trick" eliminates having to process other aspects of the shooters relationship to the target.

    If "holding high" is working for you, great, but I've seen enough evidence to show that under even a little bit of stress, and especially in situations where you're not "squared up" to the target, the bottom of the reticle on the EOTech style reticle is a much faster and more accurate method of accounting for offset at short distances.
    I'll revisit the subject based on your experience. I've never used an Eotech type reticle and turned it off when I had it in a Holosun red dot. I'm now running an LPVO that has a horseshoe dot type reticle with MOA hash marks. I'll find the one that represents height over bore hold up close and start running it under time. The Swampfox optics bullet rise reticle in their 1x prism site may be tits if this holds true. I'm always open minded, hell I'm giving pistol red dots a try after having talked myself out of it a bunch of times.

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