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Thread: Current FBI Qualification Test

  1. #11
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I agree, straight forward or rearward does nothing to get the shooter off the threat axis, diagonal movement forward is the best if you do the geometry. As far as lateral, one side-step, not so much, we always had shooters moving three steps.

    My partner and I designed the firing line portion of our range - there were 15 target points for a reason - to limit the number of students they could throw at us at one time. At any one time we had 8 to 10 firearms instructors on staff and used adjunct instructors because our schedule didn't allow for all the firearms guys to be on the range, some of them would be doing EVOC, or crime scenes with the other teams. Some of our adjuncts were pretty good instructors, others might be classified as more of a safety officer. Not all folks have a knack for instructing, and as you know, a full-time instructor who isn't retired on duty can see things the shooter is doing wrong at glance, things that a part-time/adjunct may not notice.

    We always tried to have a ratio of 2 to 1, settled for 3 to 1 for normal training. For shooting from the vehicle, aggressive movement, any turns, one of our staff instructors was on each student.

    And yeah, the past is the past.
    When you say on staff do you mean full timer?

    Most federal agencies will have one full-time firearms guy for an entire field office with collateral duty leads in the sub offices. You might have another full timer if there are two big offices within one area of responsibility.

    By adjuncts do you mean outside part-timers? Like retirees who used to be FIs ?

    Our national firearms unit has some contractors who are usually retired military, mostly AMU, Ranger Regiment etc.
    And they may use term rehired annuitants at the Academy but out in the field offices it is only agents who are certified by the agency as firearms instructors and perform it as a collateral duty.

    Back in the day those who showed some aptitude and wanted to go to FI school would serve as line safety officers, as a sort of green team or apprenticeship. There were pros and cons to that model.

    I have definitely found that shooting, teaching, and diagnostics/coaching are three separate skill sets. A two week firearms instructor school is not going to make you into an FI overnight.There is a process to learning how to “read” shooters and see what they are actually doing. Unfortunately the best way to do that is to spend a lot of time on the range watching shooters until things start to jump out at you as being wrong. For us the only way to get that much time working the range is working at the Academy or at our national firearms unit. Probably more so at the Academy because you’re either dealing with new shooters or shooters coming back for in-service training with plenty of bad habits.

    That also assumes your firearms instructor school is truly geared around instruction and is not a two week shooting vacation. I’ve been to both. The two week shooting vacation version was actually some of the best quality firearms training I have received from the government as a shooter. The problem is it was supposed to be an instructor school not a high-level shooter tuneup.

    The solution to that is to have firearms and DT instructors go through a separate general how to be an instructor school such as FLETCs LEITP. Texas requires the generic LE instructor school as a prerequisite for the state firearms instructor school. This is probably a very wise decision.

  2. #12
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    Jun 2019
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    Name:  031447A3-5F6E-4406-8F2C-1CDA93A2F03B.jpeg
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    I was able to run it clean with a revolver.
    Target and string times on target.

  3. #13
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    Feb 2011
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    Maryland
    Several disparate observations this Christmas morning.

    Shooting skills are not instructor skills. I've always been an OK shooter, but I had to work for instructor qualification at my former agency (as well as to avoid losing a gunfight). I found that aided my skill set and credibility as an instructor. We had instructors who were great shots. When I did remedial, I emphasized that I had nearly washed out of the academy due to my shooting. Instructors need to diagnose shooting errors and work on correction. Some "instructor" telling an officer to "Concentrate!" (as happened to me back in the day) isn't really helpful.

    Agencies do let standards slip. One firearms training coordinator was a sergeant who wanted to run the program. As I recall, he didn't want to go to basic instructor training or his certification had lapsed, but no issues with my department, put him in charge even though he wasn't certified to train anybody. No wonder we ended up being one of the four departments beta testing the FNS-9 with weapon lights at the risk of our lives.

    Lastly, we used a range that the FBI largely paid for in conjunction with another PD. I got the impression, but don't know with certainty, that the Bureau FI's tried to make their training realistic and relevant. Of course, the Baltimore Field Office had people driving all over Maryland and Delaware for firearms training and qualification with a variety of weapons. I'm sure things did not run as smoothly as if everyone was out of the same stationhouse.

    Be safe and Merry Christmas.

  4. #14
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    Feb 2016
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    Living across the Golden Bridge , and through the Rainbow Tunnel, somewhere north of Fantasyland.
    On topic of the OP.....I shot this when Tom first posted it, with two different guns, then had all of my staff shoot it as a "drill of the week" deal. Told them they damn well better shoot it at Instructor level. All but one shot 100% (one guy shot a 98%).

    On the topic of the thread drift:I get what Dan was trying to do with incorporating some skills stuff into his agency qual, since that is all that they're going to get. You do what you can with what you have. I think the San Jose, Ca PD has come up with a very innovative qualification in this regard. We actually use it as a "Shoot/Don't Shoot" exercise in our Basic Course, and as an exercise in in service training.

    The problem arises that some skills and tactics can't be "trained" effectively in a limited qual. The Failure to Stop is a perfect example of this. We use it in our qual, but in my opinion the way its done is negative training, so we're going to eliminate it going forward. My issue is that when you have a set, 3 round time limited engagement like this, it is 'training' folks to stop shooting, even if they miss. In the mid 90's at Gunsite they told us to keep shooting on a Failure to Stop until you put a round into that 3" triangle in the head....otherwise it wasn't a stop. You kept shooting until you got the effect you wanted. Obviously this doesn't mean its wrong to include a Failure Drill in a qual, just that you may be getting the wrong effect if you're substituting that for actual skills training.

    Since about 1995, my agency has shot twice a year for qualification. The course has gone from 50 rounds to 36. 18 months ago when we included a short, 50 round skills refresher into the process, the gnashing of teeth and wailing was amazing. Not from the cops....from certain command level persons. "Its not your job to train people! Just run the qual!" "You should only give training if they can't pass the (C- standard) qual!" And some of the most active sabotage came from members of our satellite range....who told those command folks that it should be on the officers to "practice" on their own time, and not waste the valuable time of the firearms instructors. When asked what the officers should practice, how they would know, and where?.....crickets. Firearms watchers, as someone said.

    This is going to be changing for the better here, as California POST is removing a fig leaf for training that many agencies have been getting away with. Agencies will have to document actual, firearms perishable skills training starting next year. For us, thats going to start with 2 hours of training following every qualification shoot....whether they like it or not. And the C- standard will be going up to a C+, to start
    We'll see where we can take it after that.....if there's any cops left in this town.

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