Red dot verses irons

[LOKNLOD]

I zeroed irons and a dot on an AR carbine Saturday too.

Here’s what I observe that I think you might be experiencing, too:
The dot amplifies your awareness of wobble. When you’re hunched up behind it trying to shoot a 2” orange dot on white paper at 50y, it never quite gets 100% settled like the irons do. Therefore it feels slower. You’re trying to acquire a site picture, because you’re worried about alignment (rightfully so during zeroing) but that’s not really how you should use the dot in practice.

But if you stand up, offhand, and drive that dot between multiple targets or even straight out to a single target in a hurry, shooting with a target focus and both eyes open, “painting with the dot” as if it were a laser projected onto the target but only visible to you through this magic tube - that dot is going to be a lot faster in those conditions.

It’s similar but more subtle than the RDS on a pistol because the rifle is much more stable.

[frozentundra]

I think optics really shine when the target can move and situations are fluid or complex in a way that requires mental/visual processing and decision making at speed.

However, my experience here is based on animal targets at distances you wouldn't usually associate with pistols or "CQB". Perhaps this doesn't apply so much inside defensive pistol distances?

If the target is nailed solidly to a post, in an completely unambiguous setting, iron sights are probably somewhat less of a handicap. But you still don't see many people choosing to run irons in rifle matches with static targets.

[BillSWPA]

Thanks for all the replies.

I am about to turn 50, nearsighted, with mild astigmatism, but was wearing glasses which correct those issues.

The day was partly cloudy, and ai had the optic on its maximum brightness setting.

Perceiving wobble was not the issue at all. In fact, I could barely see the dot when it overlapped my (mostly white but some red) target. I had greater ability to perceive wobble - and everything else - with the irons.

I understand the speed issue. However, I can certainly shoot faster with a sight I can see immediately and clearly than with a sight I can see far less clearly.

Looking through an aperture only helps if there is a refraction error in your glasses prescription or if it is time to update your prescription.

I am open to trying some drills to see what happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I zeroed irons and a dot on an AR carbine Saturday too.

Here’s what I observe that I think you might be experiencing, too:
The dot amplifies your awareness of wobble. When you’re hunched up behind it trying to shoot a 2” orange dot on white paper at 50y, it never quite gets 100% settled like the irons do. Therefore it feels slower. You’re trying to acquire a site picture, because you’re worried about alignment (rightfully so during zeroing) but that’s not really how you should use the dot in practice.

But if you stand up, offhand, and drive that dot between multiple targets or even straight out to a single target in a hurry, shooting with a target focus and both eyes open, “painting with the dot” as if it were a laser projected onto the target but only visible to you through this magic tube - that dot is going to be a lot faster in those conditions.

It’s similar but more subtle than the RDS on a pistol because the rifle is much more stable.

The process you are describing is known as “chasing the dot.”

[HCM]

Thanks for all the replies.

I am about to turn 50, nearsighted, with mild astigmatism, but was wearing glasses which correct those issues.

The day was partly cloudy, and ai had the optic on its maximum brightness setting.

Perceiving wobble was not the issue at all. In fact, I could barely see the dot when it overlapped my (mostly white but some red) target. I had greater ability to perceive wobble - and everything else - with the irons.

I understand the speed issue. However, I can certainly shoot faster with a sight I can see immediately and clearly than with a sight I can see far less clearly.

Looking through an aperture only helps if there is a refraction error in your glasses prescription or if it is time to update your prescription.

I am open to trying some drills to see what happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For zeroing, you normally want the dot turned down to the minimum brightness one can still see it. A red dot on a red zero target doesn’t help.

[Rex G]

Some conditions favor the dot. Other conditions favor iron sights, with a rear aperture. Other conditions, at least for my eyes, favor a big, bold, rectangular front, with a wide, bold rear notch.

I have some amount of astigmatism, so, cannot hope to be as accurate with a red dot.

Having all three of the above-listed sight set-ups, on one weapon, is impractical. I choose one, or two, per weapon.

[BillSWPA]

For zeroing, you normally want the dot turned down to the minimum brightness one can still see it. A red dot on a red zero target doesn’t help.

On a partly cloudy (but still sunny) day, maximum brightness was the minimum brightness at which I could see the dot.

I will have to try a different color target and different lighting conditions.

[jeep45238]

Put a piece of blue painters tape on the target side of your red dot, and reduce the brightness to where it’s barely visible.

With no ammo in the gun, get behind the rifle and practice looking at the target world both eyes open and dry fire the rifle. There is no harm in having the rifle bagged on a backpack or something when zeroing, or even removing the magazine from the lower after chambering to get a more stable position.

If you still can’t find the dot on the target, try switching shoulders and what eye ball is looking through the optic. You may have a very severe eye dominance issue you aren’t aware of. Example - I’m cross dominant and right handed. I shoot for precision left handed since that eye is so much stronger, even with both eyes open. For anything else, I just shoot righty with both eyes open.

Give the tape a try during dry fire, even in your home, and see if you notice a difference.

[BillSWPA]

Put a piece of blue painters tape on the target side of your red dot, and reduce the brightness to where it’s barely visible.

With no ammo in the gun, get behind the rifle and practice looking at the target world both eyes open and dry fire the rifle. There is no harm in having the rifle bagged on a backpack or something when zeroing, or even removing the magazine from the lower after chambering to get a more stable position.

If you still can’t find the dot on the target, try switching shoulders and what eye ball is looking through the optic. You may have a very severe eye dominance issue you aren’t aware of. Example - I’m cross dominant and right handed. I shoot for precision left handed since that eye is so much stronger, even with both eyes open. For anything else, I just shoot righty with both eyes open.

Give the tape a try during dry fire, even in your home, and see if you notice a difference.

I am right handed and right eye dominant. My left eye has slightly better acuity.

What am I trying to achieve with the taped red dot?

Finding the dot has not been an issue. The issue I had was perceiving the dot when overlayed on this particular target. I could see the dot without any problems when looking at the hillside behind the target, but as soon as the dot moved over the target, I could not see where the dot was on the target. One reason I am exploring this issue is the likelihood that with a different target under different lighting conditions, the iron front might be the less visible sight.

[DDTSGM]

Have you ever tried an etched reticle prismatic like the Vortex Spitfire? They work great for me and I have slight astigmatism. One upside is that you don't have to run batteries, the black etched reticle is always visible, of you can also illuminate the reticle.

Downsides folks talk about - not compatible with NVG's.

I've also been told that you have to be more 'in the eyebox' with an etched reticle. I really haven't found that to be true in my experience, you still have to be able to see through the tube. In shooting off-shoulder, asymmetrical positions, I find the Vortex dot can be seen in any position my Aimpoint PRO dot is visible, you have to be somewhat behind the tube with both. I also haven't found a lot of issues with eye relief. Maybe I'm not clear on what they are saying.

They don't work well with 3x magnifiers so if you want magnification you need to get a magnified etched reticle.. I use a Burris AR332 (3x Prismatic) and it works fine, for closer than 25-50, I just flip the front cover down and use illumination. Not practical or tactical, but for range drills it works. https://www.burrisoptics.com/sights/...-series/ar-332

I think the etched reticles solve a lot of problems for shooters with aging eyes.

Good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKkp9G1tsFI