Red dot verses irons

[BillSWPA]

Yesterday I sighted in an Aimpoint and backup irons for an AR pistol. To my surprise, I was able to shoot about equally accurately with both, but was able to achieve that same accuracy faster and more easily with the backup irons.

I like the idea of a red dot for sight visibility in low light as well as potentially having to shoot from a suboptimal position. Shooting while moving or at a moving target could also change things. But this side by side comparison had me questioning the advantages of an unmagnified optic over irons. I have not done a side by side comparison with a rifle yet, but I suspect that the longer sight radius would enable me to use the irons better than on the AR pistol, further putting the red dot at a disadvantage.

Different color targets (I was using red on a white background, which mostly appeared white at distance) or different lighting conditions could certainly change the result. I may need to do some more comparisons.

Thoughts?


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[19852+]

I use irons now because my eyes and red dots don't get along. However, before my eyes changed I found that the dot covered the target at range. Now I use a KNS pin head style front that works great for me. Now I can hit what I can see out to 300m , the longest my range has to offer.

[MVS]

Just the opposite for me. I shoot irons as accurately, but no where near as fast. Even more so as distance increases.

[Casual Friday]

To paraphrase something I heard on a P&S podcast, "If you're shooting irons faster than a red dot, you're shooting the red dot wrong."

Were you using a shot timer to get exact times or judging by feel?

[BillSWPA]

To paraphrase something I heard on a P&S podcast, "If you're shooting irons faster than a red dot, you're shooting the red dot wrong."

Were you using a shot timer to get exact times or judging by feel?

I was sighting in. These was no reason for a timer. I noticed that I had a much easier time acquiring a sight picture with the irons than with the dot.


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[jeep45238]

I used to volunteer my weekends away as a rifle instructor for several years before life happened, and before I enlisted.

I never, once, had a shooter that was capable of shooting iron sights better than a red dot once they understood focal planes. I've also never, ever, had a shooter that shot better with irons than magnification.

However, if someone is used to shooting with one setup, changing that system will tend to make the shooter think the new system is inferior. This is simply a practice makes permanent thing, as 10,000 reps on irons will make irons easier than 100 reps on a red dot.

Shutting one eye completely for 'precision' tends to put a lot of stress on the open eye and distort vision while putting a lot of strain on the shooter.


This is a common thing for people with astigmatism, and to some extent cross dominance issues. Putting a piece of painters tape over the lens, and shooting with both eyes open forces a target focus (what's needed for shooting red dots). With a 4 MOA Aimpoint T1, I have zero issues pegging steel at 500 yards (c zone IDPA - about a 4 MOA target at 500 yards). Honestly I shoot my red dot pistols better with tape over the lens in terms of not having points down, and my times are no slower either. Look at practically every Olympic shooting event, and they're shooting with both eyes open and the eye not over the sighting system being occluded by a shield on either the firearm or their glasses.


Quantify your data - times and groups at given distances. Preference for something is fine, but performance is a total different animal.

[Casual Friday]

I was sighting in. These was no reason for a timer. I noticed that I had a much easier time acquiring a sight picture with the irons than with the dot.


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Slow fire from a bench really isn't the best way to compare the two. Run some drills on a timer and I think you'll get different results.

[HCM]

Yesterday I sighted in an Aimpoint and backup irons for an AR pistol. To my surprise, I was able to shoot about equally accurately with both, but was able to achieve that same accuracy faster and more easily with the backup irons.

I like the idea of a red dot for sight visibility in low light as well as potentially having to shoot from a suboptimal position. Shooting while moving or at a moving target could also change things. But this side by side comparison had me questioning the advantages of an unmagnified optic over irons. I have not done a side by side comparison with a rifle yet, but I suspect that the longer sight radius would enable me to use the irons better than on the AR pistol, further putting the red dot at a disadvantage.

Different color targets (I was using red on a white background, which mostly appeared white at distance) or different lighting conditions could certainly change the result. I may need to do some more comparisons.

Thoughts?


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1) About how old are you and what is your vision like ? Astigmatism ?


2) Are you using a target focus with the dot or using it like irons ?

3) When you use the dot are you using just the dot ?

4) As noted slow fire from a bench on a single target is not a relevant metric even with a timer.

5) As TLG said "Feelings lie" https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

Logically accomplishing something via 3 actions should not be faster than getting there by via 1 action.

If you eyes are not what they used to be you may well find yourself shooting better slow fire groups with irons than and RDS, the rear peep acts as a diopter. In fact some people look at the dot through a rear peep to "clean up" the dot.

However, go dynamic on a time and it's a different story, even if you see a dot as a comma, starburst or bunch of grapes it will be faster if used with a proper target focus.

Those who have issues with irregular dots can get the same befits from prism type optics and LPVOs. The diopter adjustment on these optics help.

[HCM]

I was sighting in. These was no reason for a timer. I noticed that I had a much easier time acquiring a sight picture with the irons than with the dot.


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Try this.

Forget "sight picture"

Look through the optic and acquire / focus on the target, then "float" or superimpose the dot on the target like you were shooting clay birds with a shot gun. It can take a little adjustment but if you are also a wing / clay shooter it will come quicker.

[YVK]

My personal experience of comparing the two is summed up here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq-N3_plNq8