RFI: the reasoning behind the DAO service pistol "wave" of the late 80s/ear90s

[Rex G]

Farscott and Rex, thanks for the info!

I'm a fan of calling things what they are, whether it comes to malfunctions, or weapon types.

I've been a member here since 2015, but only started coming here with aqny regularity within the last 18 months or so. When I first saw the term TDA, I was eventually able to determine what it meant contextually, I think.

However traditional double action, doesn't equate to DA/SA in my mind, rather it relates to a DA revolver like pull on all trigger strokes. I'd get it if it was S&W's term for a specific model like Sig's DAK or H&K's LEM. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Just a rant, I'll live.

In the DA autoloader context, I think “traditional” evolved to refer to such weapons as the Walther PP-series, which established the mainstream acceptance of this type of action, followed by other Walthers, then Berettas, the S&W 39/59, etc. Of course, there have always been outlier pistols, even pre-WW2, which defy simple categorization. There is no short, concise menu of acronyms or short-hand terms that can satisfy everyone.

For that matter, folks on forums can argue endlessly, about the very definition of “double-action.” Col. Jeff Cooper used “trigger-cocking,” and if we combine that with John Farnam’s “self-decocking,” we could eliminate much confusion, but would have to type a lot more characters.

Anyone for “TC,SD” as short-hand for Trigger-Cocking, Self-Decocking?

[Rex G]

Rex, I have used the term but didn’t coin it. Not sure who did...maybe Wiley Clapp? I think it was John Farnam who came up with “self-decocking” for DAO pistols.

Thanks, Mas.

[jd950]

That was always the rumor but in reality HK developed the LEM for German police sales based on the German Police study (which we have discussed here before) which found trigger pull length played a bigger role in preventing NDs than trigger pull weight.

I would like to read that study and am unfamiliar with it. My search skills seem to be failing me yet again and I can't find a reference to it. Any chance you could provide a source or link?

Thanks.

[Baldanders]

I'm starting to formulate a theory that writing tedious reports has a nice side effect of helping people write clear, informative and entertaining prose about their experiences, if said folks have a decent brain to begin with.

Working with students to organize their personal narratives is one of my most rewarding activities in education, but it can be a tedious process for me and the student!

That was supposed to be "I don't have enough LIKES" dammit.

No more posts from my tablet....

[HCM]

I would like to read that study and am unfamiliar with it. My search skills seem to be failing me yet again and I can't find a reference to it. Any chance you could provide a source or link?

Thanks.

It’s a pain in the ass to find because I believe the original study was in German.

The original study was then referenced by the FBI and leading people to mistakenly claim it was an FBI study instead of a German police study.

I don’t have the time to deep dive for it but your best bet would be to look in the LEM threads here on POF. I know it has been discussed and linked here before.

[Gater]

Some of the discussion here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....length-of-pull

See post 75, in particular

[HCM]

Some of the discussion here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....length-of-pull

See post 75, in particular

That’s it - thanks.

[jd950]

Thank you, guys, I was still looking but got distracted by some other interesting discussions.

Appreciate the help.

[john c]

Lots of good commentary here. My recollections from the period:

A lot of chiefs and not a few instructors were worried that cops accustomed to heavy double action triggers would have unintended cocked gun discharges in shaky hands after firing the first DA round of a self-cocking TDA pistol.

There were some incidents which reinforced that concern.

NH: An officer shot a dog with the first DA shot from his Ruger 9mm while serving a warrant, and did not decock after making entry. Subject inside the home struggled with the officer, the gun discharged, subject was killed. AG's office chose not to indict but massive lawsuit followed.

NJ: Firearms instructor told that there were bouncebacks on the indoor range, disbelieved it and went to see for himself. First DA round from his 9mm P226 did indeed bounce back. He was so startled he reflexively holstered his SIG without decocking. No harm done, but he was horrified that he had done so and figured that if HE did, ANYONE could, and joined the DAO bandwagon.

CA: Deputy needed to shoot. Did. Shaken, he holstered his Beretta 92F with finger still on trigger and hammer still back. BANG. Department's proprietary holster with partially cutaway front allowed the Beretta to cycle . Understandably startled his finger convulsed and he fired AGAIN. TWO shots in own leg. Things like this drove the DAO auto orders.

KY: Officer's TDA P226 "went off" in his hand while struggling with a suspect who was trying to kill him. DA's office charged cop with manslaughter, on the theory (false, in my opinion) that the officer had cocked the hammer, setting the stage for hair trigger negligent discharge. He was ultimately acquitted, but the department went to DAO (Glocks).

A GREAT many departments during that period felt that 1911s could not be allowed, nor officers allowed to carry a 92F or Gen 3 S&W "on-safe," because they'd be too stupid or too unpracticed to remember to off-safe when they drew to defend their lives. (The mantra at one very large department was "Anything we adopt has to be idiot-proof." Naturally, some figured out that by extension, they might be too stupid or untrained to remember to decock after a shooting, either; I suspect that mentality fed some of the DAO auto adoptions, too.

When my dept transitioned from DA/SA P226s to Glock, the range instructors mentioned how much easier it was to train academy cadets. Training them to decock the P226 was difficult. I can definitely see the wisdom of a DAO design as general issue.

It's my contention that the gun community has learned how to safely handle pistols like the PPQ, etc. over decades with the Glock and similar pistols. Much better trigger and muzzle discipline, and better equipment like holsters have really cut down on "accidental discharges" that in the past were treated lightly.

[BigDaddy]

I agree. When the CPD first transitioned from the DAO pistols to striker fired, there was an unbelievable uproar from the firearms instructors. They predicted a lot of AD and ND's with the new weapons. As far as I know, no AD's or ND's occurred. It actually went pretty smoothly and since we are way past anyone being trained on a DAO or DA/SA the newer guys all handle the striker fired guns with zero problems at least not in the amount that was predicted. IMO when you are trained on striker fired pistol it all becomes second nature. The real problem was with the guys like me who started out on the revolver, then to the semi-auto and finally to the striker fired.