My carpal tunnel hurts just reading that. The INS firearms program was USBP driven and at that time it was still transitioning from a good ol'boy gun club full of fudd lore to something more professional. My official marksmanship training was great but tactics were an afterthought.Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock
Just thought that I would mention that this DAO “wave” did not wash across all regions of the USA. Houston PD, in Texas, went all-DA/SA in 1997, except that existing duty pistols were grandfathered, if the officer kept up-to-date on quals. There was a huge contingent supporting the Glock system, and their influence finally resulted in the G22 being added to the list of approved duty pistols, a few years later. When the SIG DAK came along, in 2004, there was disagreement, as the rules simply stated that the P229 was an approved pistol, without actually saying that it had to be DA/SA. (Yes, indeed, there were individual officers who embraced DAK, including a contingent of heavy hitters in the specialized divisions, and, a lowly night-shift patrolman named Rex G.) Finally, the policy was amended to specifically allow DAK SIGs.
To drift the thread, just a bit, by 2016, I was able to start carrying a 1911, again, on street patrol, as a primary duty pistol, after attending a transition training class.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
I actually did an article on this for RECOIL back in June called "The Lost Boys of the Wondernine Years"
Without having to revisit my research, the trend was almost entirely driven by a concern about officers "spraying" bullets around. It was also a marketing solution from S&W and Beretta to sell guns to departments who were worried that these new semi-auto bullet hoses would be a liability.
"The Lost Boys"
"The Wonder(nine) Years"
I see what you did there.
From Older Offspring after a discussion of coffee:
"If it doesn't come from the Kaffa province of Ethiopia, it's just hot roasted-bean juice."
Honestly, I'm surprised they let that title through
How much of that was influenced by the fact TX DPS went from TDA P226s to DAK P226s?Just thought that I would mention that this DAO “wave” did not wash across all regions of the USA. Houston PD, in Texas, went all-DA/SA in 1997, except that existing duty pistols were grandfathered, if the officer kept up-to-date on quals. There was a huge contingent supporting the Glock system, and their influence finally resulted in the G22 being added to the list of approved duty pistols, a few years later. When the SIG DAK came along, in 2004, there was disagreement, as the rules simply stated that the P229 was an approved pistol, without actually saying that it had to be DA/SA. (Yes, indeed, there were individual officers who embraced DAK, including a contingent of heavy hitters in the specialized divisions, and, a lowly night-shift patrolman named Rex G.) Finally, the policy was amended to specifically allow DAK SIGs.
To drift the thread, just a bit, by 2016, I was able to start carrying a 1911, again, on street patrol, as a primary duty pistol, after attending a transition training class.
They were definitely a factor in the regional popularity of the .357 Sig round.
As I believe the late PF member LSP972 said, the DAK sucks all the joy out of shooting a SIG.
I'm starting to formulate a theory that writing tedious reports has a nice side effect of helping people write clear, informative and entertaining prose about their experiences, if said folks have a decent brain to begin with.
Working with students to organize their personal narratives is one of my most rewarding activities in education, but it can be a tedious process for me and the student!
REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
NO EXCEPTIONS
Lots of good commentary here. My recollections from the period:
A lot of chiefs and not a few instructors were worried that cops accustomed to heavy double action triggers would have unintended cocked gun discharges in shaky hands after firing the first DA round of a self-cocking TDA pistol.
There were some incidents which reinforced that concern.
NH: An officer shot a dog with the first DA shot from his Ruger 9mm while serving a warrant, and did not decock after making entry. Subject inside the home struggled with the officer, the gun discharged, subject was killed. AG's office chose not to indict but massive lawsuit followed.
NJ: Firearms instructor told that there were bouncebacks on the indoor range, disbelieved it and went to see for himself. First DA round from his 9mm P226 did indeed bounce back. He was so startled he reflexively holstered his SIG without decocking. No harm done, but he was horrified that he had done so and figured that if HE did, ANYONE could, and joined the DAO bandwagon.
CA: Deputy needed to shoot. Did. Shaken, he holstered his Beretta 92F with finger still on trigger and hammer still back. BANG. Department's proprietary holster with partially cutaway front allowed the Beretta to cycle . Understandably startled his finger convulsed and he fired AGAIN. TWO shots in own leg. Things like this drove the DAO auto orders.
KY: Officer's TDA P226 "went off" in his hand while struggling with a suspect who was trying to kill him. DA's office charged cop with manslaughter, on the theory (false, in my opinion) that the officer had cocked the hammer, setting the stage for hair trigger negligent discharge. He was ultimately acquitted, but the department went to DAO (Glocks).
A GREAT many departments during that period felt that 1911s could not be allowed, nor officers allowed to carry a 92F or Gen 3 S&W "on-safe," because they'd be too stupid or too unpracticed to remember to off-safe when they drew to defend their lives. (The mantra at one very large department was "Anything we adopt has to be idiot-proof." Naturally, some figured out that by extension, they might be too stupid or untrained to remember to decock after a shooting, either; I suspect that mentality fed some of the DAO auto adoptions, too.
What are your thoughts on TDAs in today’s world?
Thanks for this post!
Every bit as valid as they were in the past. I was confident carrying department issue TDAs for many years and am using a Beretta 92 on my current teaching tour.
Back in 1990 I visited FBI FTU at Quantico and had a long talk with John Hall, who was the prime mover in getting TDA SIGs and S&Ws approved for general issue by FBI after decades of revolver-only. He made the point that the double action first shot made sense since most unintentional discharges were on the first shot. After that, he said, he figured his agents would be in a gunfight and would benefit from the shorter, lighter pull of the self-cocked TDA action. It was hard to argue with that thinking, and still is.
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