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Thread: Research on Ready Positions

  1. #21
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    Well.....that didn't last. Looks like our Police Commission plans to end the use of Low Ready by our officers. They are revising our policy to require a report any time an officer draws his firearm from the holster, and are amending our "Reportable Use of Force" policy to explicitly state that Low Ready is Pointing a Gun at someone.....totally contradicting our training over the last two years, and explicitly removing any reason for our coppers not to point guns at people. And the Range and training division were not even notified, much less consulted.

    This stems from an incident last year in which the SWAT team executed a search warrant on a robbery suspects residence. The suspects girlfriend made a complaint claiming the officers put guns to the heads of her children and threatened them. Body cam footage showed the officers maintainedow ready with their SBRs, and never pointed a weapon at anybody. Our Department of Police Accountability decided that Low Ready was some kind of made up 'trick' to get out of reporting Use of Force (pointing a firearm at someone is reportable under our policy), and tried to find the officers liable for violating policy. They also claimed that the officers should be fired for excessive force, because "if there is a legal claim against the city, even if we win, it will cost money....and that is the legal definition of excessive force." Thats a quote from their findings. God....I hate this job.

  2. #22
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    They also claimed that the officers should be fired for excessive force, because "if there is a legal claim against the city, even if we win, it will cost money....and that is the legal definition of excessive force." Thats a quote from their findings. God....I hate this job.
    “The independent report released Wednesday recommended that Mensah be fired because the risk of him shooting a fourth person was too great. Given Mensah's notoriety, people could bait him into shooting them, exposing the city to lawsuits costing millions of dollars, the report said. ”

    Per the article all three shootings were legit.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wisconsin-...tent=algorithm
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  3. #23
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Well.....that didn't last. Looks like our Police Commission plans to end the use of Low Ready by our officers. They are revising our policy to require a report any time an officer draws his firearm from the holster, and are amending our "Reportable Use of Force" policy to explicitly state that Low Ready is Pointing a Gun at someone.....totally contradicting our training over the last two years, and explicitly removing any reason for our coppers not to point guns at people. And the Range and training division were not even notified, much less consulted.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    “The independent report released Wednesday recommended that Mensah be fired because the risk of him shooting a fourth person was too great. Given Mensah's notoriety, people could bait him into shooting them, exposing the city to lawsuits costing millions of dollars, the report said. ”
    I can't even begin to try formulating a coherent response. I don't expect any of the anti's to do the slightest bit of research ... but if they did and they found Aveni's work, then they just might see that insanely restrictive policies like that lead to more panicked, difficult to justify/un-justifiable shootings.

    For the communities infected by this and those still working the roads and streets I am so sorry.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    I can't even begin to try formulating a coherent response. I don't expect any of the anti's to do the slightest bit of research ... but if they did and they found Aveni's work, then they just might see that insanely restrictive policies like that lead to more panicked, difficult to justify/un-justifiable shootings.

    For the communities infected by this and those still working the roads and streets I am so sorry.
    Those were the exact points I tried to make in a meeting at the Academy today. Unfortunately, our entire department has adopted a posture of learned helplessness about these things. They're also amending the policy to say that if a suspect resists at all...even passive resistance...that automatically makes any force used reportable force, however slight. Then there's the "Protecting the Dignity of Suspects" stuff which will prohibit us from proning out or making suspects sit on the ground under most circumstances. A belief that the suspect is about to flee is specifically listed as NOT a reason to have a suspect sit on the ground, and therefore impair their dignity.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    For the “low ready is no ready” crowd, here is some new research on how low ready can greatly reduce the chances of mistake of fact shootings.

    https://www.calibrepress.com/2020/09...c26b-177279637
    I found this article interesting and informative.

    I would have liked to see the results of post exercise interviews from the personnel who participated. Why did they shoot/not shoot/hesitate? What did they perceive or see from the different ready positions and where did they hit the target from each?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    I can't even begin to try formulating a coherent response. I don't expect any of the anti's to do the slightest bit of research ... but if they did and they found Aveni's work, then they just might see that insanely restrictive policies like that lead to more panicked, difficult to justify/un-justifiable shootings.

    For the communities infected by this and those still working the roads and streets I am so sorry.
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  7. #27
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
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    Quoted For Troof! and saved. Thank you sir!

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    I found this article interesting and informative.

    I would have liked to see the results of post exercise interviews from the personnel who participated. Why did they shoot/not shoot/hesitate? What did they perceive or see from the different ready positions and where did they hit the target from each?
    Just spitballing...

    1) Raising the gun is enough to nudge someone toward the 'shoot' end of the shoot/don't shoot decision tree. Think of all the messages we've absorbed about pointing guns at people, starting with the 4 rules: "Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy." Think of all those drills: raise gun, safety off, lower gun, safety on. There are a lot of influences that make the act of pointing a gun at someone one big step closer to the tipping point.

    2) An unobstructed view of the suspect gives one better information, which helps one feel in control of the situation. That reduces the anxiety and stress level. Conversely, thinking or feeling "I can't see what he's doing!" is going to jack up the stress level.

    The article was a good argument for better training. If an officer is confident that they can get fast accurate hits from the low ready if needed, they're far less likely to be a "fear biter" in those situations.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Well.....that didn't last. Looks like our Police Commission plans to end the use of Low Ready by our officers. They are revising our policy to require a report any time an officer draws his firearm from the holster, and are amending our "Reportable Use of Force" policy to explicitly state that Low Ready is Pointing a Gun at someone.....totally contradicting our training over the last two years, and explicitly removing any reason for our coppers not to point guns at people. And the Range and training division were not even notified, much less consulted.

    This stems from an incident last year in which the SWAT team executed a search warrant on a robbery suspects residence. The suspects girlfriend made a complaint claiming the officers put guns to the heads of her children and threatened them. Body cam footage showed the officers maintainedow ready with their SBRs, and never pointed a weapon at anybody. Our Department of Police Accountability decided that Low Ready was some kind of made up 'trick' to get out of reporting Use of Force (pointing a firearm at someone is reportable under our policy), and tried to find the officers liable for violating policy. They also claimed that the officers should be fired for excessive force, because "if there is a legal claim against the city, even if we win, it will cost money....and that is the legal definition of excessive force." Thats a quote from their findings. God....I hate this job.
    That is quite literally outrageous, and I'm sorry you and your fellow officers are being subjected to this.

    It also makes me worry that this BS will spread and have an impact everywhere including how self defense scenarios are judged.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    That is quite literally outrageous, and I'm sorry you and your fellow officers are being subjected to this.

    It also makes me worry that this BS will spread and have an impact everywhere including how self defense scenarios are judged.
    The truly sad part is that the "Protecting the Dignity of Suspects" stuff comes from.....our very own chief. That is entirely his initiative. He has become very vocal about LE practices being based in racism, lately. Basically told a bunch of cops at a station meeting a few weeks back "If you don't like it....theres the door." Way to help retention efforts, boss.

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