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Thread: Need to Replace/Augment Hellcat,.. thinking full sized. 9mm or .40

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chomps View Post
    SIDE NOTE: In the off chance I haven't mentioned it already, while my hands are not particularly small for the size of my palms? My fingers are sort of short and stubby,… So beefier guns like the Beretta with a larger grip & longer trigger reach are something that could be problematic for me.
    I have L/XL palms and S fingers so have issues with long trigger pulls and larger frames.

    The DA trigger on a 92FS was challenging to reach/shoot well, so after a couple of years struggling, I switched over to a P239.

    When I decided to switch from .40/TDA to SFA, I rented/borrowed a lot of options before buying.

    Gen 3 Glocks sorta worked for me, but I could barely get enough finger on the trigger and keep my trigger finger "bicep" from pushing on the frame.

    Gen 4's with no back-straps work. No experience with Gen 5.

    The M&P frame is slimmer than a Glock so M&Ps with the Med/Small back-straps fit better than a Gen 4 with no back-strap. (For the MP9 and MP40 I use the Med back-strap, MP45 the small).

    Any chance you can rent a Glock Gen 5 and try before buying?

  2. #62
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    Apr 2015
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    Tennessee
    Man, this thread is gold! So much good info. Thanks for posting your question, Chomps. I’ve enjoyed reading the great responses!

  3. #63
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chomps View Post
    And unfortunately, Michigan ain't one of them. 😫
    Unfortunately neither is Arizona.

  4. #64
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    Wokelandia
    Quote Originally Posted by Chomps View Post
    ...I would be very happy to go with a Glock. And it's just looking more & more like Im going to have to SPEND$$$ to get one.

    SIDE NOTE: In the off chance I haven't mentioned it already, while my hands are not particularly small for the size of my palms? My fingers are sort of short and stubby,… So beefier guns like the Beretta with a larger grip & longer trigger reach are something that could be problematic for me.

    I do like the Glock 19 and 17 especially with the exchangeable back straps because I could probably fit my grip to it a little better. Anyway,.. without being able to put one in my hand before purchasing it that's another thing that gives me a little pause when I'm considering what else to buy here.
    You are buying a "system" not just a gun when you buy a Glock. At least with the 9mm doublestack Glocks (26, 19, 17, 34), magazines are interchangeable, as are most of the parts. And parts are cheap and easy to find. Holsters are common and standard, as are sights--and there are many options. The gun is super easy to disassemble and clean. It's also easy to understand how it works. There is a ton of aftermarket support (I do not recommend modding your Glock, except to add a Striker Control Device, made by the former owner of Pistol-Forum). Guns are expensive and hard to find right now, but if you can afford it and can find one, a couple bills more to get a real Glock is well worth it, IMO.

    Unless you have child-sized hands, a Gen4 or Gen5 Glock with no backstrap will fit you. I find that after working to push their firing hand web high and hard into the "beavertail", many people who thought they couldn't reach the trigger can reach it easily. And the bonus is that now you have a good grip for managing recoil.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  5. #65
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    Eastern NC
    I think my palms are mediumish but my fingers are medium-short. Gen 5 without a backstrap works great for me. Gen 4 was doable but the removed finger grooves are a big plus and one thing I didn’t know I hated until I shot glocks without them.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #66
    If your first choice was a subcompact Hellcat, is size/concealability a major deciding factor?

    There's no sense in getting a full-size if you want to carry at work and you can't conceal it.

    A full-size is going to be more accurate and more reliable and have more capacity than a subcompact. However, it's easier to conceal a subcompact. If your requirements allow you to carry a full-size, get the full size. If a full-size is too large, get a compact. Once you get smaller than a compact, reliability starts to decrease. The smaller guns get finicky about ammo and grip. They are also much harder to shoot accurately.

    If I could only have one gun, I'd get a compact. Fairly easy to conceal without giving up too much accuracy or reliability or capacity. That way you have a gun that you can carry and also be used for home defense and fun time at the range (subcompacts and micro-compacts are not fun at the range). Some compacts, like the Beretta 92 are pushing full-size dimensions so the line is kind of blurry.

    What I did was wander down the rabbit hole and have guns for: home defense (full-size), everyday carry (compact), back-up (micro-compact (these do NOT work reliably)), range (48 oz. full size SA), end-of-the-world (22LR rifle and pistol), etc. Guns for different purposes.

    But if you are only going to get one, make sure the gun will fit your requirements and intended purpose. If you're going to conceal-carry for protection, the gun only works if you're carrying it.

    Stick with the major manufacturers for reliability. S&W, Glock, Beretta, Ruger, etc.

    When someone asks me about what single/one gun they should buy, I usually tell them M&P 9mm Shield 2.0 Compact, M&P 9mm EZ (if racking the slide will be a problem) or a compact Glock G19. You can get proficient most quickly with these (crunchy but easy triggers), they can fulfill the carry and home-defense roles, they are very reliable and they have huge product support.

  7. #67
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Feb 2019
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    Jefferson
    I'd get a Sig SP2022, but I really like the way Sigs fit my hand...

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by DMWINCLE View Post

    The M&P frame is slimmer than a Glock so M&Ps with the Med/Small back-straps fit better than a Gen 4 with no back-strap. (For the MP9 and MP40 I use the Med back-strap, MP45 the small).
    This!
    I shot glocks for years and when I got on the job, my agency only issued M&P to my initial dismay.
    After trying it out I found that the shape of the grip fit my short fingers a thousand times better than the glock and I became a significantly more proficient shooter. The M&P grip has more of a round profile vs the glock having a rectangular profile.

  9. #69
    After owning and shooting a ridiculous amount of platforms, this is mostly going to be an echo chamber post but at least its reinforcement to others...

    Glock Gen5 and M&P 2.0 would be my first choice. Both have an extensive aftermarket, both are extremely reliable. Although I own numerous Glocks, I prefer the M&P with Apex flat trigger + spring/sear/striker block along with its stock aggressive stippling. With the Apex stuff, the trigger turns into a slightly heavier PPQ trigger with less pre-travel and a 1911-like wall + break, very minimal travel post-break. The only caveat ive had with the M&P 2.0 is that in my experience is that it does not like 115gr ammo too much, (the accuracy is acceptable, not precise) but it loves 124 & 147 9mm. YMMV. With the right ammo, this setup affords me an unbelievable amount of control that nothing else quite matches that ive come across. Pre-Covid, the cost of the gun + Apex would bring up costs close to a Glock G5.

    Glocks on the other hand dont fit my hand as well, but I can still shoot them very well. Unlike my experience with the M&P, Glocks arent *too* picky with ammo in my experience. Pre-Gen5 Glocks, I would typically have to outfit it with an aftermarket trigger cause the drop safety on the trigger would rub my finger wrong and I hated the "CHA-CHUNK" when it would break. Gen5 triggers on the other hand, are actually quite good out of the box. Swap sights are youre GTG. While the M&P gives me a feeling of complete control, Glocks give me a level of control that i am very comfortable with. Plus there are numerous PDWs that use Glock mags that if the need ever arises, I can carry any (personally tested) reliable PDW I own along with a Glock and not worry about mags. If you like this idea with Glock mags, stack em high.

    I dont have any experience with the CZ P10C but I hear great things. The PPQ feels awesome in the hand (the best of any polymer platform IMO) but unless its the 5" version, it is VERY flippy when fired IMO. Not a fan of the P320, moreso after the shit they pulled with the safety issue acknowledgement. I owned 2 of em and 6000 rounds between them, just didnt like the trigger or feel of the gun. If you want to go plastic fantastic in a DA/SA system (or want a plastic Sig), go poor mans P226, the SP2022 or the excellent alternative, the CZ P09/07.

    I know its hard to find guns in this current climate, but put what you can in your hand and see what works for you.

  10. #70
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    I started shooting in 2014, picking up a rental M&P 1.0 9mm for the first time in my life. Since then I’ve conducted 11 handgun buy/sell transactions costing me approximately $4,000, and shot approximately 17,000 rounds in training, competition and classes. The guns included multiple types of S&W, HK, Walther, Glock and Sig Sauer. I have 140 hours of formal training. I am a beginner USPSA Production shooter, classified at 36%. I have two dark pin runs in Gabe Whites class and two runs, just over time. I have size M hands. I now only own a Glock 19 gen 5 for USPSA, a Glock 48 for carry, and a Ruger LCR revolver for walking the dog.

    I only mention this all to give you a context for this comment: If I had to do this all over again, from a beginning, knowing nothing: I would go to the rental range and shoot either a Glock 48, a Glock 19 or a Glock 17 (depending on hand size). Then I’d buy the one I shoot best. I would then invest in good quality gear (holster, belt, mags, ear pro, eye pro, etc), and spend my budget for ammo on a 90% new brass-cased training FMJ / 10% self-defense ammo basis.

    Then I’d try and get some good foundational training. I’d become familiar with the laws in my state concerning use of a handgun. I’d buy Tom Givens book, Fighting Smarter and read it cover to cover.

    https://www.amazon.com/Fighting-Smar.../dp/1506027571

    I’d become a Site Supporter of www.pistol-forum.com, and start a Training Journal to record my progress. I’d try and find a local competition club, either Steel Challenge, IDPA or USPSA; anything that puts you on the clock. I wouldn’t make any changes until I’d shot 1 to 2k of ammo.

    Good luck!
    I got back from my trip and consulted my tracking spreadsheet. I wanted to correct a couple of the above points, make one clarification, and a few other comments.

    I've actually made 20 transactions, involving a total of 13 guns, since 11/30/13. All were SFA, except for a brief dalliance with a P30SK LEM, which did not go well. I've never had more than 4 guns at one time. I spent $5,886 on guns, and got $2,390 in trades (I suck at trading guns) for a net cost of $3496. I have 17,545 rounds logged. Using an average of 0.25 per round, this generates a total ammo cost of $4,386. On an annual basis, Gun sales expenses come out to $511, with ammo cost per year of $641.

    Someone mentioned the Striker Control Device (c) aka "Gadget" available from Tau Development Group. I appreciate that, because I missed that in compiling my list of suggestions, if one opted for a Glock:

    https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com/

    Simply put, I would not every-day carry a Glock without a Gadget. It would be correct to say I waited to buy my Glock 19 in 2017, solely dependent on the availability of this device. It is both fiendishly simple and 100% effective in adding a "hammer" like feel to the holstering process. To this day, I reholster every pistol I own with my thumb over the back of the slide, despite the fact I have almost exclusively shot striker fired hanguns. A gadget and a set of my preferred sights are about all I would want to add to any Glock carry gun.

    The M&P line has come up, and I wanted to comment on one aspect of it. By what I've seen here, the 2.0 design has progressed remarkably since the 1.0 that I owned and shot extensively in 2014. A M&P 2.0 would seem like a solid choice. Folks here I respect shoot them.

    The thing that would concern me about the M&P was the design of the trigger safety. S&W uses a hinged trigger shoe, which depresses the trigger safety to allow the trigger to be pressed. I had serious issues with comfort with the trigger shoe, such that I was driven to install an Apex trigger in it, IIRC. It was that uncomfortable. I only mention this because I wanted to use this to illustrate a rule I've put in place, for me: never buy a gun you haven't shot.

    There's no amount of gun shop fondling and "ohhhhh...this feels good" without live ammo. Guns seem to change personality when shot. You have to deal with recoil, sight pictures, repetitive shots, and all within your specific anthropometric situation (i.e. hand size, grip breadth, finger reach, etc.) I distinctly recall the first time I shot a Gen 5 Glock 19, thanks to the generosity of @MSparks909, who out of the blue volunteered to meet me at his range in NC in 2017 and let me shoot it. The whole "I can't shoot Glocks, the grip angle sucks" just melted away as he helped me ring an 8" steel plate at 25 yards, consistently. I said, huh (or words to that effect ) maybe I should buy one of these. I still have the Glock 19 I bought after that visit.

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