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Thread: Target focused shooting with irons

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Clark Jackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    It depends on the target difficulty, but most of the time I use my sights to confirm alignment with the target. If the target is very large, mechanical alignment and the slide are enough.

    Yesterday at a local match, target focus worked really well for me, even on a Classic target (turtle) with very tight no shoot partial at 20+yds. I shot 3 on it and got 2A and a close C. However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.
    I'm not sure if that's what Humble Marksman was getting at, but your description is good to go for me. It highlights the variations of "sight packages" required based on target size, distance, shooter skill, etc. and of course all the other stakes - especially off the range - which come into play.

    I may not completely agree with the OP and title of that video because it could lead some to an incorrect conclusion the use of sights is not regularly required for the effective use of a firearm. Your response just saved me a time-expensive deep-dive on the subject.

    Thanks, CF.
    Last edited by Clark Jackson; 09-27-2020 at 08:37 PM.
    "True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost." -Arthur Ashe

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    It depends on the target difficulty, but most of the time I use my sights to confirm alignment with the target. If the target is very large, mechanical alignment and the slide are enough.

    Yesterday at a local match, target focus worked really well for me, even on a Classic target (turtle) with very tight no shoot partial at 20+yds. I shot 3 on it and got 2A and a close C. However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.
    Fitt’s Law is a bitch:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post

    However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.
    When you said "on a lean," was that referring to you leaning (like around a barricade) or the target was slanted?

  4. #14
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Target focused shooting with irons

    Quote Originally Posted by Backspin View Post
    When you said "on a lean," was that referring to you leaning (like around a barricade) or the target was slanted?
    Around a wall, so my index was a little jacked. My misses were right or left of targets pretty much randomly.
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  5. #15
    Ah, that was my initial interpretation.

    What I've found is how much concentration to give to a shot depends on not only the target size, but also our position. The more we deviate from our primary shooting position the more focus we need to apply to sights and trigger. I've noticed I simply cannot shoot the gun the same leaning from a barricade compared to my usual upright range stance, but in the past I thought it was just a recoil management issue.

    What Humble Marksman said earlier about grip/locked wrists joints, along with some recent range sessions, reminded me that grip not only supports recoil management, but also effects how aggressive we can be on the trigger without disturbing the sights. Leaning out from a barricade can effect how well our wrists lock which might be another reason why we need to focus more on sights/trigger on the lean.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter Clark Jackson's Avatar
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    @Tom Givens posted a link in M&T for the October 2020 Rangemaster newsletter. You can find the link here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ter-Newsletter

    In this newsletter, @Mr_White penned an article titled: "Knowing What You Need to Know" (starts on page 8) and it is germane to this thread. The overall article was well done and I enjoyed it. In particular, the below excerpts:

    "Aiming with iron sights can further subdivide into sight-focused (front sight sharp and clear, rear sight and target blurry), and target-focused (front and rear sights blurry, target sharp and clear) shooting. Both of those methods are in the category of visually verified sighted fire." -Gabe White, Rangemaster Newsletter October 2020

    And

    "Amazing levels of speed can be cultivated with sighted-focused shooting. Amazing levels of precision can be cultivated with target-focused shooting. What both have in common is that the gun is brought to full extension at eye level, and vision is used to establish the finest level of gun-target alignment that is practical under the circumstances..." -Gabe White, Rangemaster Newsletter October 2020

    @Clusterfrack
    @Backspin
    @GJM
    Last edited by Clark Jackson; 09-28-2020 at 09:55 PM.
    "True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost." -Arthur Ashe

  7. #17
    One thing I’ve noticed in threads on PF over the years, when target focused shooting is brought up, well intentioned folks tend to talk past each other and this can result in more heat than light. The disconnect seems to be that when good competition shooters talk about target focused shooting they are still using the sights to aim, they just don’t have a razor sharp front sight focus. The gun is still at eye level, they still very much see front and rear sight on the target, it’s just that they are fuzzy. This can, and does, save those dudes some time in a match setting while providing perfectly acceptable accuracy for what they are doing.

    More defensive oriented folks tend to think of target focused shooting as not using the sights at all. The gun may not be in eye level. In defensive use, this tends to lead to extremely poor accuracy unless the opponent is in contact distance and a good retention shooting technique is used. An example of a good retention technique in my mind is the thumb pectoral index used for touching distance retention shooting.

    I think it is a little harder to achieve maximum accuracy with the target focused technique often recommended by competition shooters for most people. The people that can do it well have spent a great deal of time honing the technique and tend to be excellent shooters. The problem comes in when folks that don’t have the same amount of time and dedication try to apply it. Those people seem to get poor hits and poor scores.

    For the vast majority of shooters using iron sights, I believe the more traditional hard front sight focus is the better technique. If they show a high level of dedication to the craft, such that they are willing to spend the extra practice time, then learning how to apply the competition shooters target focus technique can be very beneficial to match performance.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Clark Jackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    One thing I’ve noticed in threads on PF over the years, when target focused shooting is brought up, well intentioned folks tend to talk past each other and this can result in more heat than light. The disconnect seems to be that when good competition shooters talk about target focused shooting they are still using the sights to aim, they just don’t have a razor sharp front sight focus. The gun is still at eye level, they still very much see front and rear sight on the target, it’s just that they are fuzzy. This can, and does, save those dudes some time in a match setting while providing perfectly acceptable accuracy for what they are doing.

    More defensive oriented folks tend to think of target focused shooting as not using the sights at all. The gun may not be in eye level. In defensive use, this tends to lead to extremely poor accuracy unless the opponent is in contact distance and a good retention shooting technique is used. An example of a good retention technique in my mind is the thumb pectoral index used for touching distance retention shooting.

    I think it is a little harder to achieve maximum accuracy with the target focused technique often recommended by competition shooters for most people. The people that can do it well have spent a great deal of time honing the technique and tend to be excellent shooters. The problem comes in when folks that don’t have the same amount of time and dedication try to apply it. Those people seem to get poor hits and poor scores.

    For the vast majority of shooters using iron sights, I believe the more traditional hard front sight focus is the better technique. If they show a high level of dedication to the craft, such that they are willing to spend the extra practice time, then learning how to apply the competition shooters target focus technique can be very beneficial to match performance.
    +1. Well said.

    This is exactly why I cringe when I read things like "hard front sight focus is a lie." I know what they mean (or think I do...which is why I ask before jumping into the discussion), and I have a pretty good idea what the uninitiated will think reading that type of headline. The above is another massive reason RDS is one of if not the best technological gain for firearms since smokeless powder: it made target focus *the way* and not *a way* for utilizing the sight properly (with both eyes open even... and that was a big point of contention for a minute as well).

    I'm actually surprised we don't see it more RDS on military and law enforcement folks handguns (plenty on their machine guns, rifles, and carbines), but I understand the concerns with ruggedness and some other concerns. However, at the end of the day, it most likely comes down to a resources issue (time to train and money). I'm completely derailing here so I'll leave at that.

    Again, well said Jared.
    "True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost." -Arthur Ashe

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Elwin's Avatar
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    I'm glad someone can describe this better than I can. I've been shooting with both eyes open and a target focus basically since I started shooting pistols, even though my introduction to handguns was 25 yard shooting; it's just what my eyes did naturally, so I have a very hard time describing to people what I'm doing when they ask "how the hell is it even possible to shoot a pistol with both eyes open?". Some points made here may help. Big thing for me is I've finally connected the dots as far as two-eyes-open and target focus going together. Explaining to people that I shoot with both eyes open doesn't make any sense at all if their assumption is that a hard sight focus is "the way," or at least what I'm talking about. I can't front sight focus with both eyes open, it results in seeing two targets which is something that at least my brain can't handle. But I am almost always instinctively ignoring a second set of sights that's off to the right.

    Hopefully my explanation works better now, next time someone asks me.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwin View Post
    I'm glad someone can describe this better than I can. I've been shooting with both eyes open and a target focus basically since I started shooting pistols, even though my introduction to handguns was 25 yard shooting; it's just what my eyes did naturally, so I have a very hard time describing to people what I'm doing when they ask "how the hell is it even possible to shoot a pistol with both eyes open?". Some points made here may help. Big thing for me is I've finally connected the dots as far as two-eyes-open and target focus going together. Explaining to people that I shoot with both eyes open doesn't make any sense at all if their assumption is that a hard sight focus is "the way," or at least what I'm talking about. I can't front sight focus with both eyes open, it results in seeing two targets which is something that at least my brain can't handle. But I am almost always instinctively ignoring a second set of sights that's off to the right.

    Hopefully my explanation works better now, next time someone asks me.
    Gabe White wrote an excellent article about vision where he discusses focus and accommodation with both eyes open. I can have both eyes open, a hard sight focus, and only see one target. It’s just that now there are “two guns.” One is very faint though. That’s how I have to shoot to get my best results.

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