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Thread: Lancaster PA riots after clearly justified police shooting

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I wonder if Gropey Joe would be so quick to condemn his SS detail if they shot a crazy black dude charging him with a knife?
    This is the same guy who, as VP, ordered the military aide carrying the "nuclear football" to stay at least a mile back during his frequent trips to Delaware. Looking like a regular guy was more important than actually being able to do the job of the VP if we were ever under attack and B. Hussein Obama was unable to respond.

    Would a Secret Service agent be close enough to do much if following Burisma Biden's orders?

  2. #102
    Life is good RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I wonder if Gropey Joe would be so quick to condemn his SS detail if they shot a crazy black dude charging him with a knife?
    Only if they could shoot dude in the leg.
    "Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now, that strength, which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are. One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find; and not to yield." --Tennyson. USPSA#92555

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
    My agency issued LL shotguns to sergeant and above a few years ago. The one use before I retired involved an EDP with a knife in a standoff with two State Troopers. When our guy rolled up with the orange shotgun he said that the EDP’s eyes got big and he became sane enough to try to flee. Two beanbags later he was laying on the road like a squirrel hit by a semi and quite compliant.
    I always included a lot of discussion of this snippet in my less-lethal instructor courses:

    Disruption of motor nerve impulse is the only identified factor that causes immediate, reliable incapacitation.

    In the Fall 2000 issue of the Journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association, in an editorial entitled Editorial Note On The Less Than Lethal Concept, Dr. Martin Fackler, a pathologist and one of the nation's preeminent wound ballisticians, made the following observation:

    'It must be made very clear to those who are forced to use the 'less than lethal' projectiles that when these projectiles act as intended (don't penetrate) and incapacitation of the human body follows, the mechanism of incapacitation is clearly and solely psychological - with all the unreliability, unpredictability and uncertainty inherent in the psychological mechanism. Those who doubt this have the chance to prove it wrong: go hunting for wild pig or deer using one of these less-lethal projectiles… Shooting people sized wild game factors out the confounding psychological mechanism that irretrievably confuses data collected from human shooting incidents, and demonstrates the true physiological effects of various bullets.'

    '…policemen do not become incapacitated when their body armor stops an assailant's bullet. So why should we expect incapacitation in those struck by "less than lethal" projectiles?'

    'Could the pain inflicted by hits from these projectiles cause incapacitation? No. I have interviewed several dozen police officers who have been hit by bullets while wearing soft body armor. They had a momentary dent at least as large as those caused by the "less than lethal" projectiles yet pain was a complaint of none. These projectiles probably cause little pain even if they penetrate. It is a common misconception that penetrating projectiles cause pain, but most cause little or no pain, and none cause incapacitating pain.'


    The excerpts from Dr. Fackler's editorial make the point that all officers using less-lethal projectiles need to remember:

    LESS-LETHAL PROJECTILES ARE NOT SILVER BULLETS, EXPECT AND BE PREPARED FOR FAILURES!

    MENTAL EFFECTS OF LESS-LETHAL PROJECTILES

    Less-lethal projectiles have a tremendous PSYCHOLOGICAL effect on the subject. The fact that someone (an officer) has pointed a weapon at them and fired gives many individuals the fear of being shot. When combined with the pain/feeling of impact the feeling of being shot becomes real for many persons.

    If the person is not strongly 'goal-driven' to achieve their objective this impact may be sufficient to cause them to become psychologically incapacitated.

    Remember that most offenders wounded in gun battles do not suffer immediately incapacitating injury, instead, they quit fighting for another reason.

  4. #104
    Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    In my experience....they work only on people that pain compliance works on. Not the crazy, or drugged up, or enraged. There is no phaser on stun setting.
    With good probe deployment and quickly going hands on while they are under power, it can work through neuromuscular interruption. The issue is, of course, that it's a relatively low probability of success vs the risk of a charging knife wielding suspect.

    I have had good results with probes + drive stun to complete the triangle for the drugged / crazed with cuffing under power. That requires multiple officers, though, and definitely not what I'd recommend in the situation of an active attack with a deadly weapon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    With good probe deployment and quickly going hands on while they are under power, it can work through neuromuscular interruption. The issue is, of course, that it's a relatively low probability of success vs the risk of a charging knife wielding suspect.

    I have had good results with probes + drive stun to complete the triangle for the drugged / crazed with cuffing under power. That requires multiple officers, though, and definitely not what I'd recommend in the situation of an active attack with a deadly weapon.
    I should have been clearer. I was speaking of Less Lethal impact projectiles....especially those launched from a 12 gauge shotgun. Dan's post above perfectly describes my experience of them.

    About a dozen of us were certified as Taser 7 instructors. The department then put aside several million dollars to begin the program. The County Board of Supervisors then stripped the same amount of money out of the police budget to prevent the program. I am convinced that one of the reasons is actually to continue to have "controversial" police shootings. This benefits certain parties, politically.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    I should have been clearer. I was speaking of Less Lethal impact projectiles....especially those launched from a 12 gauge shotgun. Dan's post above perfectly describes my experience of them.
    Oh, yeah, sorry. I misread thinking you meant Tasers. Concur on 12g LL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

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