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Thread: Lancaster PA riots after clearly justified police shooting

  1. #81
    I Demand Pie Lex Luthier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    From what I saw on the video, the shooting appeared justifiable and not even questionable. Rioting in response to that is insane.
    "No one should ever die for their actions, except when we say so."
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    From what I saw on the video, the shooting appeared justifiable and not even questionable. Rioting in response to that is insane.
    It depends how you see the problem.

    1) "This guy is a threat. Someone needs to stop him as soon as possible."

    2) "This guy needs help. Someone needs to disarm and control him so we can help him."

    The problem is that family/friends/bystanders call 911 thinking (2), and what the officers do often looks like (1). Neither are wrong, but it's a huge mismatch between expectations and outcome.

    Better nonlethal options would go a long way to bridging the gap.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    It depends how you see the problem.

    1) "This guy is a threat. Someone needs to stop him as soon as possible."

    2) "This guy needs help. Someone needs to disarm and control him so we can help him."

    The problem is that family/friends/bystanders call 911 thinking (2), and what the officers do often looks like (1). Neither are wrong, but it's a huge mismatch between expectations and outcome.

    Better nonlethal options would go a long way to bridging the gap.
    We do not currently have a nonlethal option that is assured of stopping a mentally ill person with a knife.

    Knives are not necessarily good at stopping people, but they are very good at causing very serious, potentially permanent or fatal injuries. The distance between the officers and suspect could have been closed in less than a second, putting both officers in serious danger.

    Many news stories I have read have suggested Tasers. I previously attended an MMA class with an instructor who was also a Pennsylvania State Police officer and trainer. He once told me and a few others that if anyone tried to use a Taser on one of his students, the attempt would not go well. While I understand that Tasers are much better than many other stun guns, I have put a gun show special stun gun against my arm and activated it. The affect was annoying but not debilitating.

    If the officers had time to coordinate, they could have decided that one tries the Taser while the other stands by with his pistol. However, when they both have to react quickly, they both have to choose the tool that is most likely to stop the threat. What happens if they both choose Tasers and the Tasers fail?

    If the expectation is that the police need to handle a knife-wielding suspect by "getting him help," that expectation is misinformed to put it as kindly as I can.

  4. #84
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    I'm no expert, but that man needed help before the 911 call was ever even made.

    The 911 call and the behavior that led to it was the emergency sure, but this dude was tumbling down the rabbit hole long before he picked that knife up.

    Can't blame the cops for that. They're not psychiatrists...as much as people expect them to be.

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  5. #85
    Regular guy. Cory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillSWPA View Post
    We do not currently have a nonlethal option that is assured of stopping a mentally ill person with a knife.

    Knives are not necessarily good at stopping people, but they are very good at causing very serious, potentially permanent or fatal injuries. The distance between the officers and suspect could have been closed in less than a second, putting both officers in serious danger.

    Many news stories I have read have suggested Tasers. I previously attended an MMA class with an instructor who was also a Pennsylvania State Police officer and trainer. He once told me and a few others that if anyone tried to use a Taser on one of his students, the attempt would not go well. While I understand that Tasers are much better than many other stun guns, I have put a gun show special stun gun against my arm and activated it. The affect was annoying but not debilitating.

    If the officers had time to coordinate, they could have decided that one tries the Taser while the other stands by with his pistol. However, when they both have to react quickly, they both have to choose the tool that is most likely to stop the threat. What happens if they both choose Tasers and the Tasers fail?

    If the expectation is that the police need to handle a knife-wielding suspect by "getting him help," that expectation is misinformed to put it as kindly as I can.
    A drive stun with a taser is not equal to a hit with prongs. They're not remotely equivilent. I've been hit with both at the same time with an X26. I was mildly aware of the drive stun, the prongs had my undivided attention. A swap meet stun gun is a joke in comparison.

    That being said, lethal threats require lethal response. Tasers are not the answer.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    A drive stun with a taser is not equal to a hit with prongs. They're not remotely equivilent. I've been hit with both at the same time with an X26. I was mildly aware of the drive stun, the prongs had my undivided attention. A swap meet stun gun is a joke in comparison.

    That being said, lethal threats require lethal response. Tasers are not the answer.
    Absofuckinglutely.

    I took the 5 second ride last year at qual. It's legit nasty and completely locked me up.

    But.

    It is completely and conceptually an ambush weapon. You must be at the right range for it to be anything other than painful.

    I was drive stunned 3 times in a knockdown drag out fight (thanks Kev) and it had no effect on me.

    Last Xmas I shot a convict too close and he ripped the prongs out and the fight started.

    Only a fool would try it against an active armed assailant alone.

    YOU MUST HAVE LETHAL OVERWATCH!

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    I'm no expert, but that man needed help before the 911 call was ever even made.

    The 911 call and the behavior that led to it was the emergency sure, but this dude was tumbling down the rabbit hole long before he picked that knife up.

    Can't blame the cops for that. They're not psychiatrists...as much as people expect them to be.
    Agree. I think a lot of the frustration is that if you're poor, it's often really hard to get good mental health care, but it's relatively easy to have folks show up with guns. And they're asking "Does it have to be this way?"

    Not the fault of the police. They're stuck in a system that's not working for the people they're trying to serve.

  8. #88
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Munoz’s family has said he suffered from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and was off his medication at the time.

    The officer involved in his shooting was responding to a 911 call placed by his mother, stating that Munoz was getting “aggressive” with her and trying to break into her home, police said.
    ...
    In a better world, the subject would have been able to get medical help long before this episode, and the 911 call would never have happened. That's a worthy goal. But if the only emergency option is the police, and the only reliable tool they have is a firearm, people are going to be shot. The system was broken long before the officer stepped out of the car. Sometimes there is no good choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    I'm no expert, but that man needed help before the 911 call was ever even made.

    The 911 call and the behavior that led to it was the emergency sure, but this dude was tumbling down the rabbit hole long before he picked that knife up.
    A close in-law relative, who had the same psychological issues, started a potentially lethal violent conflict that my wife and I were involved in. LE was called, and he ended up dying at the hands of the police. We declined to file complaints about the incident, despite massive pressure from his friends.

    He had good access to medical and psych care. Really, the only thing that could have prevented the incident for sure would have been for him to be institutionalized for life. No one would have suggested that, or could have known that he was a 350# ticking time bomb.

    Sometimes there are no solutions that are best for everyone. I will say this with confidence, we need police to stop violent people from hurting citizens. Sometimes the violent people have mental conditions that are theoretically treatable, but for whatever reason that isn't an option at the moment violence explodes in your house.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 10-27-2020 at 06:22 PM.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    I'm no expert, but that man needed help before the 911 call was ever even made.

    The 911 call and the behavior that led to it was the emergency sure, but this dude was tumbling down the rabbit hole long before he picked that knife up.

    Can't blame the cops for that. They're not psychiatrists...as much as people expect them to be.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    A close in-law relative had the same psychological issues, started a potentially lethal violent conflict that my wife and I were involved in. LE was called, and he ended up dying at the hands of the police. We declined to file complaints about the incident, despite massive pressure from his friends.

    He had good access to medical and psych care. Really, the only thing that could have prevented the incident for sure would have been for him to be institutionalized for life. No one would have suggested that, or could have known that he was a 350# ticking time bomb.

    Sometimes there are no solutions that are best for everyone. I will say this with confidence, we need police to stop violent people from hurting citizens. Sometimes the violent people have mental conditions that are theoretically treatable, but for whatever reason that isn't an option at the moment violence explodes in your house.
    Your decisions were 100% correct, and neither you nor the police have any fault for the outcome.

    In order for these people to be helped, they have to genuinely want to be helped. They must want to be helped badly enough to find good care and to meticulously follow the care instructions, including having 100% honest conversations with their doctors and taking their medications without fail.

    We do not have - and should not have - a way to force someone to accept help unless and until that person becomes an imminent threat to themselves or someone else.

    If the individual does not want help, they cannot be helped.

  10. #90
    Walter Wallace Jr.'s family is seeking justice but they are not advocating for the officers who killed the 27-year-old Black man to be charged with murder.

    The family, including Wallace's mother and wife who were at the scene of the killing, privately reviewed the police body camera footage of the fatal shooting early Thursday morning.

    When asked why the family, who has yet to bury Wallace, would not want to pursue murder charges against the two officers who fired seven rounds each into him on Monday, Johnson replied, "Here's why: they were improperly trained and did not have the proper equipment by which to effectuate their job."

    The family does intend to file a wrongful death suit.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/10/29/92936...murder-charges

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