I would imagine most of the management for the ammunition division will stay, with some potential hires from the industry. There may be very little interaction with Palmetto actually.
I would imagine most of the management for the ammunition division will stay, with some potential hires from the industry. There may be very little interaction with Palmetto actually.
One thing I have to credit PSA with is they grasp the concept of continuous improvement. Their first gen AK's had a bad reputation, I don't really know much about their 2nd gen, but they apparently got their manufacturing and customer service levels a whole lot better over that period and came out with the gen 3's which are a much better gun. My understanding is that in the process of getting their manufacturing operation to the next level they actually bought their own forge and put it in operation, which only a handful of firearms manufacturers even own at this point.
The fact that they understand the products their hobbyist customers want, they don't walk in fear of the social responsibility trolls they run into at Manhattan cocktail parties, they understand the price point and margins that will let them move volume, they embrace a direct sales model without 2 additional old school retail layers between them and the customer like every other firearms manufacturer has with distributor middlemen who then sell only to LGS (probably the main reason they have lower prices) and the fact they are trying to innovate with new products all the time puts them way ahead of the hidebound PE owned FUD catering firearms companies like Remington.
If they apply their operating principles to that ammunition division it might portend good things. If I want to order a case of cartridges delivered to my gate, I should not have to pay the markups by the distributor followed by the markups from the local retailer, it is that simple.
Great news! My Trooper likes Remington .38 sjhp better than anything else.
REPETITION CREATES BELIEF
REPETITION BUILDS THE SEPARATE WORLDS WE LIVE AND DIE IN
NO EXCEPTIONS
I would own a LOT more Colt products, if not for that silly bullshit. Instead they left me to find the AR uppers I actually want on the second hand market, and I bought AR lowers and 1911's and everything else from other companies. It's sad, really.Originally Posted by fatdog
One of the problems with PSA was that they grew too quickly. This caused problems with inventory and shipping. Then during the last demand spike PSA basically was putting out so much product that they had to hire temps to do shipping and some assembly work. This allowed bad product to get out and gave them a less than stellar reputation. The guy that runs PSA laid this all out on a podcast/video interview a year or so ago.PSA AR-15s are generally not considered to have the highest quality of assembly and the above was an attempt at what I believe is commonly known as a "joke"
Assembling an AR/M4 isn't rocket science, there is very little hand fitting involved. If your job was to install triggers into a receiver, chances are that you'd be pretty good at it in a week, then if they moved you to hammers, in another week you'd be pretty good at that, and so on through the entire rifle. That is what a stable workforce gives you, and hopefully, PSA has accomplished that, as the CEO pointed out it was one of the major things they needed to fix.
As someone who looks at the BATFE Annual Firearms Manufacturers And Export Report each year, I have seen PSA's growth. In comparison to the more popular, at least with internet authorities, boutique brands, that growth is astounding. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics (the link allows you to scroll down to find the report, and then choose the year you want to look at in PDF format, much handier than googling each year)
Keeping that in mind, what PSA's detractors don't seem to understand is that if you are putting out ten times as much product, logic should tell you that you will have about ten times the number of complaints. Kind of funny, a PSA BCG eats gas rings and it's labeled as 'typical PSA garbage.' On the other hand a BCM BCG eats gas rings 'no one's perfect, stuff happens.'
Of course, that is to be expected when SOME forum owners are biased toward a company with which they have a financial relationship.
Additionally, the PSA deriders apparently don't understand how differing production marketing strategies can impact the price of goods sold. As an example, if you buy 100,000 bolt carriers at a time, you are probably going to get them cheaper than the guy that buys 1,000, or even 10,000. That means you can sell the end product a little cheaper. Keeping in mind that PSA doesn't wholesale to a distributor who then sells to a gun store, which means two price markups, PSA's prices for the same product should be lower.
Likewise if you buy 10,000 bolt carriers from an OEM manufacturer, and then spend additional time completely QC'ing each of these bolt carriers (which should have been done by the OEM manufacturer) instead of batch testing, your end product is going to cost more. And you are still going to have an occasional goof.
Don't mistake my message, I don't believe PSA offers a better quality rifle than BCM, Sionics, LMT. I do, however, believe they are equal to a Colt as long as we are comparing apples to apples - chrome-lined barrel, C-158 bolt, etc.
Absolutely. I think they will do well with the Remington ammunition line. One thing concerns me: if you look at Joe Biden's plan for America, he wants to eliminate the online sale of pretty much everything firearms related. This includes ammunition and components such as barrels, BCG's, etc. If this comes to pass, it doesn't bode well for any manufacturer, especially one that doesn't have that distribution network.
Last edited by DDTSGM; 09-11-2020 at 06:42 PM.
Your assessment of PSA has some big holes in it.
Until recently PSA assembled AR's but did not actually "make" anything. They got into actual manufacturing by buying other companies that manufacture barrels, AK's etc.
The original PSA guns were decent and what would now be known as "PSA Premium" with FN CHF barrels etc. However a collection of good parts does not necessarily equal a good rifle. Proper assembly and QC checks are a thing.
You are correct about growing pains but they go beyond assembly issues an the last panic. PSA had at least 4 different "grades" of ARs and AR parts - PSA Premium, PSA, Freedom and PTAC. At the lower levels (PTAC and Freedom) they were literally buying and re-selling other makers out of spec rejects aka shit (NOT Blems). That speaks to their ethics.
Your assertion that PSA's BCG's are the exact same thing as those used by BCM, Colt etc and that the price difference is all 'PSA buying in bulk" is nonsense. PSA's BCG are made by Tooltech which means they are hit or miss. Most of the premium brands you mentioned all use BCG made by Microbest. Could Tooltech make a BCG group that was the equal of Microbest ? Maybe but it would cost about the same as a micro best. You get what you pay for.
Now that they, or more correctly their subsidiaries, are actually making things in house they do seem to be making better products but PSA's AK division getting their act together doesn't mean they AR's are the equal of Colt.
Last edited by HCM; 09-11-2020 at 09:05 PM.
Older or newer Trooper? I've always lusted after one of these:
On Topic: I see this as a positive development. PSA seems to have decent business acumen.
-All views expressed are those of the author and do not reflect those of the author's employer-
I don't have a dog in the fight, but, I don't think you read what I posted in context, I didn't mention names with the bolt carrier example, was merely talking about purchasing in economies of scale, although PSA and BCM were on my mind. Likewise, where did I say PSA manufactured anything? If you are talking about my reference to the BATFE reports, PSA is a firearms manufacturer, just as I am when I form 1 an SBR.
ToolCRAFT (versus Tooltech) is one of the largest OEM manufacturers of bolt carriers around. For those that drink the mil-spec kool-aide, they are a parts supplier for repair parts. Toolcraft doesn't make bolts, so they source those elsewhere for their complete BCG's. Nonetheless, Toolcraft warranties their BCG's forever, regardless who you bought it from.
Could Tooltech make a BCG group that was the equal of Microbest? Maybe but it would cost about the same as a micro best. You get what you pay for.
What I pay for is a BC made of the proper material and surface treatment, a C-158 bolt (shot-peen and MPI - HPT isn't a big deal to me, some are some aren't) as well as a gas key made of the proper material, secured with the proper grade 8 fasteners, and properly staked. Generally I pay in the ball park of $89.00. Nitride or phosphate is what I get for finish. You'll have to go some to convince me that a mil-spec BCG is worth half again or more. I get what I pay for.
they were literally buying and re-selling other makers out of spec rejects aka shit (NOT Blems). That speaks to their ethics. Put up or shut up - prove your allegation, and not by posting something Stickman wrote on M4C. Because I've heard that before, and when I've asked for proof, crickets. So you have the channce to be the one who makes me acknowledge my misconception.
Same thing with 'FN will make a barrel to any spec you want, the ones they sell to PSA are rejects.' Show me the proof. Does it even make sense that FN would intentionally sell subpar barrels and allow the purchaser to advertise them as FN's? That would really help FN's reputation, wouldn't it?
Unlike some folks, I don't have a hard-on for any manufacturer, I have BCM parts on almost every rifle I build - generally at least the upper receiver, sometimes the A5 receiver extension, I also gifted my oldest boy a complete BCM upper in 16' M4 carbine configuration. No doubt, they are good at what they do, in general I think they are a little pricey, otherwise I'd buy more.
I just really hate to see folks piling on to anyone or anything. It's one of my great failings, I guess.
ETA: I'm an American, my version of that wouldn't allow me to handle an AK, so I couldn't care less about PSA's AK division.
Industry sources aside, as in real people I know not anonymous dudes on M4C, I've seen friends and co-workers who bought PSA's PTAC crap and wound up having to buy twice or using my parts (meaning I had to buy twice) because the PTAC parts would not fit in-spec uppers and lowers.
I'm not a fan boy for any particular manufacturer, a Colt is on par with at least half a dozen others (BCM, LMT, Sionics, SOLGW etc) but there are some that have earned my dislike due to choosing to put out junk, PSA is one of those.
With the current gun/ammo drought we are about to see general a repeat of the poor QC and out of spec junk that we saw in 2013 and into 2014. Be suspicious of anyone who is never out of stock on anything under these conditions.
The first half of this is true, the proof is FN's OEM price-list. They will make you a $200 barrel to a $400 barrel (I recall there are 7 grades?), the difference being the machine time and reject rate you are willing to pay for. The $200 barrels are the minimum FN will send out the door. That is a difference between FN (and many others) and the PSA's.FN will make a barrel to any spec you want, the ones they sell to PSA are rejects.'
The FN barrels used in PSA's original guns, subsequently known as their premium line guns are not rejects, but they are $200 FN barrels. A $200 FN barrel is not a bad barrel, but it is also not the same thing as the higher end barrels they make for BCM, Noveske, etc
FWIW when I bought my 11.5" upper from them last black friday, i think they had consolidated down their lines. There was no premium vs freedom vs ptac, just different barrels (FN sourced chrome line, nitride, SS, etc). I went for the nitride because I wanted a $230 PSA upper that might work and not a $330 PSA upper that might work. I also made sure to get one with a pinned FSB because I reasoned as long as it wasn't canted they probably couldn't fuck that up too badly.
Upper so far seems acceptably accurate and nothing's exploded yet, but the raison d'etre behind that AR pistol was to be as cheap as possible. At about $600 including the used PA optic, I am pretty satisfied
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