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Thread: MPBR Zero and the Civilian AR

  1. #61
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Spent time at the range this weekend measuring the reticle in the 2.5x20 scope and breaking-in/sighting-in the new 16-inch SS 410 barrel.

    To measure the reticle I set this up at 286.5 feet, which is the distance at which one MOA equals exactly one inch;




    I clipped two pieces of paper on the 6-foot folding rule to make the measurement easier to see. After some experimentation, the right marker ended up at 63 inches to position them perfectly between the two heavy duplex posts. So the distance between those posts is 63 MOA, which I round up to 64 to make the math easier.

    The pieces of paper along the top were used to measure the thickness of the narrow reticle. It looks to be just about 1.5 MOA for the thinner sections, which is actually quite useful (more on that in a bit).

    With the Speer 75 grain Gold Dot load, the final holdovers are as follows;

    • 0 - 230 yards - POI will remain +/- 2-inches verically to POA.
    • 300 yards - hold over nine inches, based on size of target.

    For distances beyond 300 yards I divide the space between the center cross hair and tip of the bottom post in a way that I can judge with reasonable precision;





    • 1/2 way down to the tip of the post is 16 MOA, or about 600 yards, which is about as far as I'm going to reach out with this rifle.
    • 1/4 way down is 8 MOA, or about 430 yards
    • 1/3 way down is 10 MOA, or about 475 yards

    So while this is obviously not as precise as a true ranging reticle, knowing these holdovers is useful for the longer shots.

    The BCM SS 410 Barrel

    The first day at the range was windy, and much of my time was spent measuring the reticle and doing some breaking-in of the barrel, which included cleaning with patches of Hoppe's #9. It started off looking really good, but the groups kept opening up as the morning went on. By the time I had to leave the range due to a club activity, I was not impressed with the new barrel - though it showed flashes of brilliance. The best 5-shot group of day one was just about one MOA, and amazingly it was made with XM193 ball ammo. My go-to load, the Speer LE 75 grain Gold Dot load, did not do well at all. By the time I had to pack it up, I was wondering if the barrel was even worth the money and time i invested in it.

    After a thorough cleaning of the barrel (which it turns out it really needed) I returned to the range this morning with just the Gold Dot load - it was either going to get me at least 1.5 MOA over a couple of 5-shot groups or I was going reinstall the old barrel. I fired a total of 10 rounds over two 5-shot groups. Group one measured 1.19 MOA, which was quite acceptable. I made my final adjustments to the scope and the second group measured 1.43 MOA, which one shot I called as high. Over both groups, four shots went into .77 MOA. The barrel will remain installed on my rifle. :-)

    A key takeaway from all of this is that while a 2.5X is entirely adequate for hitting IDPA size targets out to WAY beyond "self defense" distance, it's NOT what you want to use to test the precision capability of a barrel. I suspect my precision-testing results would have been better with a higher magnification scope.

    Now about that 1.5 MOA cross hair thickness - it is convenient visual indicator of my rifle's precision capability with the Gold Dot load when placed over the target. If the cross hair obscures what I want to hit, it's unlikely that I will be able to hit it with any degree of confidence.

    My adventures with a Fudd scope on a SD carbine will continue.

  2. #62
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    Leupold used to (may still) claim that your 2.5x Lightweight was their toughest scope. Mine is currently riding on top of a T/C Encore Katahdin carbine in .45/70 and perfect for my use with that rifle.

    Your usage on a 5.56 carbine makes for interesting reading, it may lead me to buy a second 2.5x for a rifle I’m slowly piecing together.

  3. #63
    Member SecondsCount's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWR View Post
    I agree it’s probably more the games that have shifted pistols and rifles in the last several years.

    I just got in from shooting steel, had carpal tunnel release surgery two weeks ago so pistols are out for a bit. I shot my 6.5 Needmore out to 1000 yards and decided I’d see what my favorite carbine would do with some new loads I worked up. The carbine has a 16” Sionics pencil barrel and a Trijicon 1-4 Accupower scope on it with the red segmented circle dot and BDC out to 800 yards.

    The ammo is the new 62 grain Federal MK 318 barrier blind bullets Midway had a couple of weeks ago. I loaded them to 2877 FPS with TAC And was curious how they’d match the 55 grain BDC I was surprised that it matched pretty close and I made 5 solid hits on a 2/3rd size silhouette plate at 500 yards. Hit center mass on a full size silhouette 3 out of 5 at 600. Even got one into a 17” plate at 700 but with no feedback, I didn’t know it until I drove down to see.

    Point is I can do anything I need to do with this gun but a buddy of mine figured his dope off his duplex and dials power down to get hits using aiming points of the duplex just the same. It’s harder or requires more thought but it can be done with a simple duplex.

    That said,I won’t buy another simple duplex again.
    This is where I am at. For the type of shooting that I do, I would struggle with a basic duplex reticle. NH Shooter has done a great job of showing what can be done with his setup and I learned a few things.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  4. #64
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Speaking of Trijicon LPVO scopes, any feedback on the new Credo line? Not that I'm shopping, but I'm always looking....

  5. #65
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
    Leupold used to (may still) claim that your 2.5x Lightweight was their toughest scope. Mine is currently riding on top of a T/C Encore Katahdin carbine in .45/70 and perfect for my use with that rifle.

    Your usage on a 5.56 carbine makes for interesting reading, it may lead me to buy a second 2.5x for a rifle I’m slowly piecing together.
    The light weight/low mass is what makes it handle heavy recoil so well and not place a lot of strain on the scope mount and rings. I've read about this scope on some hard-kicking dangerous game rifles, including user reports on rifles chambered in 458 Lott.

    No doubt the real attraction for me is the light weight and compact size. The 4.9" of eye relief is great for preventing scope-eye with hard-kicking rifles, and it's also excellent for two-eyes-open shooting as the scope obscures so little of the view (small profile, further away from the eye). I only wish Leupold offered it with their FireDot Duplex...

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    Speaking of Trijicon LPVO scopes, any feedback on the new Credo line? Not that I'm shopping, but I'm always looking....
    I was/am very interested in the Credo HX. It offers a wire reticle with fiberoptic illuminated center dot ala P4xi and Razor.

    Instead I just jumped on the Europtic Bushnell 1-6.5 SMRS deal. The capped turret version is 17 oz.

  7. #67
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    Oct 2019
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    I wish I would’ve picked up one more 1-4 Accupower when they were on close out for $379 or so. It was as the green model that got that cheap and I can’t see green very well so I passed. Then it dawned on me that I rarely use the illumination anyway but it was too late.

    I’ve only read reviews of the Credo, some claim they are just renamed Accupowers, others claim better illumination and a few minor changes. I caught a deal on an Aimpoint PRO and totally sidetracked the scope “need” I thought I had. But I will try one when funds are available. Hoping for a Black Friday sale.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    The light weight/low mass is what makes it handle heavy recoil so well and not place a lot of strain on the scope mount and rings. I've read about this scope on some hard-kicking dangerous game rifles, including user reports on rifles chambered in 458 Lott.

    No doubt the real attraction for me is the light weight and compact size. The 4.9" of eye relief is great for preventing scope-eye with hard-kicking rifles, and it's also excellent for two-eyes-open shooting as the scope obscures so little of the view (small profile, further away from the eye). I only wish Leupold offered it with their FireDot Duplex...
    My 2.5x started out on my .458 Lott but I prefer to shoot it with irons. The Katahdin actually has pretty abusive recoil but is easier to carry than some pistols, the 2.5x just seemed like a match made in Heaven and has held up for quite a bit of shooting 350gr bullets at nearly 2,000fps. My .416 has a 1.5-4x 30mm Leupold with their #4 reticle with the red dot. It’s a great scope but for the money the 2.5x scope is hard to beat.

  9. #69
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWR View Post
    I’ve only read reviews of the Credo, some claim they are just renamed Accupowers, others claim better illumination and a few minor changes.
    This Credo 1-4 with green MRAD ranging is mighty tempting, especially now that my rifle has gained some additional precision capability.

    That said, my rifle as currently configured still weighs less that eight pounds (7 pounds, 14.8 ounces to be exact) unloaded. The above-mentioned 1-4 scope would add about 10.6 ounces (not including any change in the mount) and is 2-1/2 inches longer. With it my rifle would weigh about 8 pounds, 10 ounces - not too porky but IMO no longer something I would consider a "lightweight rifle."

    So is a scope with a more usable (and illuminated) reticle and slightly higher magnification worth the cost in weight and bulk (not to mention the $$)?

    If I can do what I need to do with the current set up, perhaps not. But then again, at some point in the future my priorities may shift and I like what I'm seeing in this Credo 1-4.

  10. #70
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    Oklahoma
    I do like light weight but at some point you have to decide is this all I need or can I do more with the 5.56?

    All my AR’s are pencil barrels but aside from one original BCM KMR rail, they have normal tubes/rails that could be lighter, I could ditch my SOPMOD stocks, Ditch my BUIS’s, use lighter optics and mounts but with everything comes a penalty. You either do without something or it’s not as durable or you carry the weight. No right or wrong choice as long as you’re honest in what you need, it’s just up to you.

    The 5.56 is an impressive cartridge out to 300 yards and truthfully, 300 yards can easily be done with a 2.5x duplex. Remember that overthinking part I talked about? That’s where BDC, turrets and heavier, beefier scopes come in. I’ve put the extra weight to good use and stretch the 5.56 out further than I should but that’s my choice.

    I bought 2 of the Accupowers for less than what they want for one Credo, it’s gonna be hard to buy one unless a deal can be found.

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