Press-Out: Good or Bad?

[Slavex]

I disagree, I use a press out almost exclusively during competition I find it to be the fastest way to nail plates, on the draw and after reloads in single action as well. It's second nature to me, on shots where I don't need to grab a tight sight picture I still press out for my shots. I find it to be a much more uniform index with the press out. Talking to Bob Vogel in Norway last week he says he uses the same technique, depending on what's required. The upside to using the press out is that you can fall back to a standard dard index draw easily, on simple large targets, but the same can't be said if you only do the index.

[GOP]

I disagree, I use a press out almost exclusively during competition I find it to be the fastest way to nail plates, on the draw and after reloads in single action as well. It's second nature to me, on shots where I don't need to grab a tight sight picture I still press out for my shots. I find it to be a much more uniform index with the press out. Talking to Bob Vogel in Norway last week he says he uses the same technique, depending on what's required. The upside to using the press out is that you can fall back to a standard dard index draw easily, on simple large targets, but the same can't be said if you only do the index.

Very good points here, especially the last line. For me, I seem to be able to draw to hard targets relatively easy and fast, even something like a 1" square at 10m. I rarely find myself having to refine my sight picture much on difficult targets, even things like movers and swingers. I also am getting the gun up and on target much easier in my limited experience because the gun goes on target in a more efficient manner (directly to the target as opposed to up to the eyes then on the target). I may try to incorporate some press-outs in dry fire this week, then test out my times on a 1" square at 10m to see how it works out.

[Leozinho]

Talking to Bob Vogel in Norway last week he says he uses the same technique, depending on what's required. The upside to using the press out is that you can fall back to a standard dard index draw easily, on simple large targets, but the same can't be said if you only do the index.

I was only halfway paying attention to all the "press out" threads until I read that Bob Vogel uses a press out. That's news. Maybe I missed it, somebody needs to come up with a consensus on what is a press-out, what is an inverted J, and what's an "index draw". Preferably with videos.

'Cause Vogel's draw looks nothing like the Toddg pressout that's on youtube.

Is anyone saying that picking out the sights a few inches from full extension (i.e. method described in Enos' book) is a press out? Then, yeah, in that case almost all successful competitors use a "press out", You don't want to be like the Crossfit koolaid drinkers, who every time they see a successful athlete doing something other than just curling in the squat rack they say "He's basically doing CF." "That Ben Stoeger, he basically press out."

(BTW, I don't know who is trying to coin the term "index draw" but there are only three references to an "index draw" on Benos. One use is in reference to a shooter's natural point of aim. The other two references are unclear.)

[DonovanM]

Could you talk on this a bit?
What do you find inefficient about the press-out?
Or maybe the question is: what do you define the "pure" press-out to be, and how does it differ from the "J" draw?

Pure pressout: moving to pick your nose with your rear sight on the draw and driving the gun out straight from there to the target. Looks like an upside-down L.
Inverted "J" draw: your hands coming together at about sternum height and driving the gun out from there by "climbing the hill". The sights are picked up ~6" before the gun is at full extension (for me at least).
Index draw: Holster -> target, shortest path possible. Sights picked up only at full extension, such as what is seen in any of the sub 3 second FAST videos or Steel Challenge.

Purely in terms of distance traveled, the index draw is faster than an inverted J which is faster than a pure pressout.

Now the argument is this: is what you are doing with the sights on the way to the target beneficial enough, in terms of getting them aligned for the shot, to make up for the greater distance traveled? IE, how will it effect your time to first shot as opposed to your draw time (two very separate and distinct things).

The answer to this question is directly proportional to the strength of your index, and I would hope the answer is yes, it is beneficial, for most people who use the pressout. But as we can see from guys like Bob Vogel and Ben Stoeger, their index is so strong that they gain nothing by picking up their sights before they're at full extension, so they just get the gun on the target as fast as possible because they can align it how they wish in the fraction of a second it takes to get on target. I on the other hand am not them and my index is pretty weak so I draw to pick up my sights a little before full extension, while being confident enough not to desire a pure pressout even when doing a 25y Bill drill (a much harder target than a 3x5 at 7y).

My position as it stands now is that the pressout is a good technique for the beginning or intermediate shooter to be more confident on their ability to put a fast first shot on a small target. Anyone who decides to have more than a passing interest in pistolcraft however would be better served with a J or index draw. This is purely in terms of speed and efficiency. We can come up with a million what-if scenarios where one might be marginally better than the other, but I am really not interested in that kind of discussion as it represents a way of thinking completely divorced from my own. If those considerations are important to you, your priorities are obviously different and we can agree to disagree. You must however admit that you are giving up a not insignificant amount of speed and efficiency for tactical considerations... it is simply common sense and there is also nothing wrong with that.

Care to explain how an index draw allows you to be so much faster? I have yet to read how an index draw results in a faster first shot. If we're talking efficiency, the sooner you grab your sights the sooner you can break a shot. With your index draw that's not until you are at full extension.

The only way that would ever be able to irrefutably be tested is if an unbiased third party was exactly as proficient with a pressout as they were with an index draw. This would be impossible in many different ways, not the least of which including the nebulous levels of proficiency involved with each and the times associated with being able to calculate that, which would only be available through having done the test... if this paragraph made any sense at all.

I think you either misunderstood Vogel or he misunderstood you because his sub 3 FAST run is pure, 100% index draw. I have never seen him do anything resembling a pressout. But I could be wrong. If you can provide video of him doing anything resembling one I think that would be very interesting and would cause me to significantly rethink my position.

He draws to some EXTREMELY tight targets in this video, especially at the :20 or so mark... no pressout, or anything resembling one. All index.

[Slavex]

Only misunderstanding seems to be you. I didn't say he used a press out on the FAST, but that he said he does a type of press out when he needs to. He said he uses what he needs depending on what he has to accomplish.

[YVK]

Anyone who decides to have more than a passing interest in pistolcraft however would be better served with a J or index draw.

I would imagine this is a bit of exaggeration. I shoot over 10K rounds a year, yet I do better with pressout than with index. I hope that, while not comparable to true high volume shooters here, this qualifies me as having more than passing interest. Of course, I am not that talented, so perhaps my 10K amount to 1k in hands of those who are better than I am.
Two more observations:
1. Pressout is not only or necessarily about aiming for me, it is about giving me more time to work the trigger smoothly.
2. I will bet dollars to donuts that anybody who is shooting DA/SA or LEM - like triggers and doing index draw are working those triggers way before they see the sights when they are pushing the speed. I believe Ben Stoeger alluded to this in one his posts. 1911, Glock, M&P, I can see shooters with strong index, gorilla grips and great trigger control to index-draw and then complete trigger press from start to finish. Sig, Beretta or HK - no way. And that gets to your very valid point about what are the individual priorities and considerations. I am not working my triggers until my sights are reasonably on target, others may do differently.

[DonovanM]

Only misunderstanding seems to be you. I didn't say he used a press out on the FAST, but that he said he does a type of press out when he needs to. He said he uses what he needs depending on what he has to accomplish.

...And what I said was that I have never seen him use anything even resembling a pressout on a wide variety of targets he was drawing to, targets ranging from a 3x5 card at 7y to 25+ yard IPSC targets. Does he suddenly start doing pressouts if it's a partial target at that distance? I must be missing something here...

Or I guess I'm focused on target difficulty here and that may not be what's going on. So when DOES Bob Vogel use a pressout, exactly?

[GOP]

YVK brings up another great point; I think the press-out works much better with certain triggers than others. Once my sights are on target with my PPQ, I can work the trigger very fast with no issue. IF I was running a Da/SA, I'd probably prefer to be working the trigger sooner. So, I'll rephrase my current opinion:

For beginner to intermediate shooters OR those shooting DA/SAs and LEMS the pressout as described at P-F is great. For advanced shooters or those shooting most SFA's, I believe a index draw is the way to go. Really though, we need a strong definition of the different types of draws before anyone can truly conclude anything.

[MDS]

For advanced shooters or those shooting most SFA's, I believe a index draw is the way to go.

This idea has been mentioned a few times in this thread. I'm definitely not an advanced shooter, and my half-assed self-taught press-out works better for me than anything else I've tried. I plan to keep using it until I can hit <7s FASTs cold on demand. If/when I decide to put in the time and effort to get better than that, I might have to spend some significant time getting competent with various draw techniques, so I can make up my own mind.

All that said, how advanced is advanced, in your opinion, for the purposes of preferring an index draw? I.e., how good does someone have to be before the index draw "is the way to go?" Can you quantify that, somehow? E.g., "draw&2 on a 3x5@7yd in <2s."

(Reading the above, it kind of sounds argumentative. Please believe I'm just asking an honest question...)

[DonovanM]

I think if you get to the point where you can row a DA trigger pretty quickly without it disturbing your sights you'd still be better off with a J draw, or index. When I was running a SIG the DA trigger really didn't add that much time to my draw. I could break a shot at full speed on most USPSA targets right as I hit full extension no prob. On really tight shots, like 20yd steel, I'd align the sights then row the trigger. I'm an aggressively mediocre shooter, and it barely cost me anything. I draw the exact same now that I'm running a Glock.

If doing a pressout lets you be 100% confident in your trigger prep though and you'd rather have that than the cutting edge of speed... go for it.