Press-Out: Good or Bad?

[Failure2Stop]

not quite as inefficient as the pure pressout while still allowing you to pick up the sights before the gun is at full extension.

Could you talk on this a bit?
What do you find inefficient about the press-out?
Or maybe the question is: what do you define the "pure" press-out to be, and how does it differ from the "J" draw?

[TGS]

I've always heard that Ernest Langdon had a big role in popularizing the press-out through his classes and championship wins, but this as always thrown me off:



Clearly not a press-out. I'm wondering if the video taker was just confused.....

[YVK]

I've made the same observation, TGS. During the class, E.L. taught the pressout and demonstrated the drill showing pressout being faster on a reduced size target (3x5). On the videos he seems to be doing more of a straighter presentation.
One thing that Ernest taught different from what I heard from Todd is working the trigger depending on trigger properties. As an example, he said the wouldn't get on 1911 trigger until he saw the sights clearly on the target, while with longer DA pull he could be more aggressive with getting on trigger earlier. The videos show him shooting M&P that would require a lot less time to complete trigger press than DA/SA Beretta he used teaching our class. I wonder if this accounts for a difference in presentation, but that's a speculation on my part.

[Mr_White]

Shooting at a certain level (like most things) becomes much more about the amount of time practicing and much less about specific techniques. I think you'd be better off taking a conceptual approach (I.e. clear the cover garment, bring the gun out, see what I need to see) and practicing a ton versus a technique based approach (clear cover garment at a certain point, use a press out, put sights directly on target, etc). Your body will figure out what it needs to do if you practice enough.

I think the further you get from just grabbing the gun and putting it on target, the worse off you are. I think one should practice by telling your body that you want to align the sights inside some apparent target area and letting it figure out the rest. Stop trying to control everything - Inner Game of Tennis style. That's how I feel. YMMV.

...not quite as inefficient as the pure pressout while still allowing you to pick up the sights before the gun is at full extension...

What do you find inefficient about the press-out?

I know nobody was asking me directly, but I would like to just jump right in...

This is a very interesting topic to me, since I wallow in the draw all the time and really love it as a fundamental gunhandling skill.

This post is also a partial answer to this thread: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...e-3x5-at-7-yds

Before I really started participating on p-f, I was doing basically the inverted J, though the gun didn’t get into my true eye-target line until the last few inches of the horizontal line of presentation. I didn’t realize that until I saw video of myself doing the Bill Drill DotW from back in October. I had thought that I was presenting in the true eye-target line, but wasn’t. I was finding sufficient visual awareness of the sights just from seeing them at the end of extension when they really did get into the eye-target line. I was excited and happy about what I had learned to do, which was much more and better and faster than I’d ever done before.

Todd’s general assertion that the press-out, the technique itself, is associated with a higher hit percentage (that the technique itself is more reliable), coupled with his own awesomely consistent performance against the 3x5, like 95 to 98% hits when he’s reported it, made me want to try the press-out, or at least a muzzle-level variation of it to see what I think about the hit percentage thing. (Todd I sincerely hope that didn’t amount to me unfairly putting words in your mouth – the above is my recollection, but please correct me if I am wrong about that.) I generally hit at 90% at best, less commonly 100%, and a lot of days aren’t at 90% either, so I wanted to explore this…

Since then, I’ve been doing things a couple of different ways: a muzzle-level version of the press-out, where immediately after the hands join and I actually get the gun into the true eye-target line while keeping it as level as I can, I slow the gun’s speed in the horizontal line of presentation, get hard visual focus on the front sight, and drive out from there at less than full speed, continuously refining the sights and adding pressure to the trigger, breaking the shot near full extension.
I also haven’t forgotten my old extend-stop-press way.

The extend-stop-press way, when I do it at full speed, doesn’t allow me to finely adjust the sight picture until the gun is almost stopped in the last few inches of extension, which is one of Todd’s points in favor of the press-out, I think, and is more reliant on a combination of indexing and coarse visual information to put the gun where it needs to go so no/minimal sight picture refinement is needed before the shot breaks. The issue isn’t the path the gun moves through, it’s the speed that doesn’t allow me to finely adjust the sight picture until near the end of extension.

My observation is that that loss of efficiency (not seeing and finely adjusting the sights as early) is totally offset by the fact that I can move through the extend-stop-press draw at a higher rate of speed than I do when I try to do any form of press-out. I have to slow down a lot to see what the press-out is trying to let me see. I wonder if this is the inefficiency that Donovan is referencing? Donovan?

Because of the increased speed of the extend-stop-press, when I am on, which is often, I ultimately get the shot done faster by a couple of tenths. When I am not on, which is also a regular occurrence, then it just takes a couple of extra tenths to fix the insufficient sight picture I might see using the extend-stop-press, and the shot breaks at pretty much press-out speed.

What I have not been able to reconcile for myself, is any difference in consistency of hits. I have wondered from the beginning whether Todd is correct about the consistency (he may well be), or he is just an extremely consistent performer himself with his chosen technique, or if there’s no inherent consistency advantage to either technique.

Some days I do better with a muzzle-level press-out type thing.

Some days I do better with an extend-stop-press type thing.

Some days they are the same.

Every day I wonder if I am overthinking this.

What I really think I notice consistently is that when I miss, I did something wrong, regardless of technique. And that wrong thing is normally either a little jerking the trigger, or a support hand yip that shoves the shot high or high and right. Absent those errors, I like both techniques.

I haven’t come to any real conclusion, and am certainly attracted to the idea of more consistent hits via a press-out technique, but also very much feel the philosophy of ‘letting your body come up with the answer through careful and perpetual practice,’ which is what I did before participating on p-f. And that has worked well for me. The real question is whether another way would work better, and that’s the riddle I have not solved.

So, I don’t know. But this is a very interesting discussion to me nevertheless.

[Matt O]

Every day I wonder if I am overthinking this.

What I really think I notice consistently is that when I miss, I did something wrong, regardless of technique. And that wrong thing is normally either a little jerking the trigger, or a support hand yip that shoves the shot high or high and right. Absent those errors, I like both techniques.

I haven’t come to any real conclusion, and am certainly attracted to the idea of more consistent hits via a press-out technique, but also very much feel the philosophy of ‘letting your body come up with the answer through careful and perpetual practice,’ which is what I did before participating on p-f. And that has worked well for me. The real question is whether another way would work better, and that’s the riddle I have not solved.

So, I don’t know. But this is a very interesting discussion to me nevertheless.

Very strongly agree with all of the above. I have not yet figured out what style of draw I like best, or what is most efficient for me and it is entirely possible I am overthinking things. That said, I enjoy reading different perspectives from people who have either confidently chosen or "mastered" their particular technique, in the hopes that I may glean some nuggets of wisdom that help me find what works best for myself.

[JAD]

[mispost, mods please delete if you like]

[Surf]

Again I will stress that I am not a competition shooter and there are many great pistol guys here that would smoke me. Having said that, I may be a bit different in that I train and perform a variety of methods for many functions including the draw / presentation, while many might keep things narrowed down a bit more so they can focus more on less. For myself I use more than one draw and presentation which is dictated by the situation that I am facing. Factors may include but not be limited to time, distance, cover, static, moving, in coming fire, etc... In my shooting and video's I can clearly be seen using a press out as usually described on this forum or I can be seen using more of a 45* style as described by the competition comments. In all honesty I really don't think about it, it just happens. I will add that due to my body structure and having 3 shoulder surgeries, a high press out starting close to my head and eyes is a bit difficult.

[GOP]

Being completely honest, I think that an index type draw is incredibly faster and has much more potential for high level shooter than does the press out on almost all shots/drills. I think that a press-out is probably the best way for a beginner or intermediate shooter without a lot of time to train to get to a decent FAST time, but I think that if you have much time to practice and can actually hit a 3x5 on demand EVERY TIME at 7m, a index draw is the way to go. A press-out is useless for me unless I want a slower time, because my index is pretty much on now target now. I'm almost to the point with my index draw that I can hit a 8" plate at 25m without using the sights (though I have no idea why I wouldn't).

[Slavex]

Care to explain how an index draw allows you to be so much faster? I have yet to read how an index draw results in a faster first shot. If we're talking efficiency, the sooner you grab your sights the sooner you can break a shot. With your index draw that's not until you are at full extension.

[GOP]

Care to explain how an index draw allows you to be so much faster? I have yet to read how an index draw results in a faster first shot. If we're talking efficiency, the sooner you grab your sights the sooner you can break a shot. With your index draw that's not until you are at full extension.

Maybe I should have clarified that I am referring to a competition shooting environment, not a tactical environment because I know nothing about that. In competition (as you obviously know...or at least here in the States), you are primarily shooting 8" plates at 7-15m. You don't even need sights a lot of the times if you want to be technical. How does an index style draw become faster than a press out draw? Because your body has become so used to where to point the gun that you can break the shot on auto-pilot. Your brain aligns the sights extremely fast, ESPECIALLY on something big like a 3x5 at 7m. If you can't hit a 3x5 on demand every time at 7m from the holster with an index draw, than I recommend buying SIRT and dry firing the heck out of it until your body can point the gun where you want it subconsciously. I've yet to see anyone on video running a sub 3 to 3.5 second FAST using a press-out, and though I can get in the mid to high 3's pretty consistently now on the FAST with an index draw, my press out is in the low 4's. The very best shooters in the world currently use a index draw for the most part, unless they are running a DA/SA. Again, I think that with enough practice (hours and hours), an index draw becomes much more efficient than a press out style draw; however, for a beginner or someone without a ton of time to train, I think the press-out is the way to go. I practice A LOT because I want a future in shooting, so I may not be an excellent example.

Edit: I wanted to add that I'm not here whatsoever looking for an argument and there are much better shooters here than me. I'm just sharing my opinion, so hopefully we could have a logical discussion versus an emotional one.