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Thread: Livefire type 3 malfunction practice rounds?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    Can someone explain to me what exact malfunction this is supposed to replicate beyond the generic term "type 3"? I have never seen an actual "double feed" in a centerfire semi auto pistol where 2 rounds are coming from the mag and trying to get in the chamber. The only complex malfunctions I've seen are when cases get stuck where the extractor hook jumps the rim, and when rounds don't chamber and lock up the gun because the cases were bulged. In those cases you wouldn't necessarily be able to clear the malfunction the same way as this notional "double feed" by locking the slide back and removing the mag. I guess if I shot a gun prone to feedway stoppages this might replicate that?
    The Type 3 Malfunction is in effect a Failure to Extract. A round is fired and the case does not extract or does not fully extract and ends up back in the chamber. The slide cycles and strips a new round from the magazine which has no where to go since the chamber is Occupied. You now have a dead trigger, a slide out of battery and a traffic jam in the feed-way/chamber.

    Some pistols you can extract the magazine directly. Some pistols you need to lock the slide to the rear in order to extract the magazine. Reason being the live round is both pinched between to breach face and empty case as well as being held on to by the magazine feed lips. By locking the slide to the rear you relieve the pinching/clamping force on the live round.

    Regarding the Type 3 simulator devices I'm not sure I would trust that they would create the same exact malfunction. They may have the same remediation but I just don't know.

    A type 3 malfunction can be created/simulated with live rounds, dummy rounds or a mixture of the previously mentioned rounds and empty cases. As follows: Lock the slide to the rear. Insert your choice of round/case into the chamber. Insert loaded magazine. Ease the slide forward which will strip a round and create your malfunction. Extra care required if there is a live round in the chamber so that you don't pickle the primer with the round from the magazine, hence the "ease the slide forward". No the malfunction did not occur during live fire but you can still go through the process of clearing the malfunction.

    Now my 2 cents on the topic. I trained for many years with Chuck Taylor (RIP). Chuck was a huge proponent of proper weapons manipulation. He regularly drilled malfunctions. What I did multiple times on a few different guns (Glocks & 1911s) was break extractors doing Type 3 malfunction clearance drills. After a wile I started faking the drill. I went through the motions but didn't force my extractor over a chambered case.

    The ultimate clearance test occurred on one fateful weekend. I had trained with Chuck the previously weekend. Did my requisite malfunction clearance drills when Chuck called for them. The next weekend I was shooting a drill with Larry Vickers standing next to me and watching. I experienced my first ever shooting induced Type 3 malfunction. I immediately went into the clearance procedure and fired one more shot and again Type 3 Malfunction and the clearance procedure was ineffective. Larry asked to see my 1911. He looked into the breach and said "I hope you have a backup gun because this one is hosed".

    My supposition was that the previous weekend's clearance drills stressed my extractor and it was destined for failure. The interesting fact is that once the extractor broke, a sure cause of a Type 3 malfunction, the clearance procedure is worthless without a extractor that can hold on to the case.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I looked at them but didn't order. Those have a definite service life - like 500 uses IIRC.

    These are metal and are supposed to do the same thing: https://t3mt.com/
    My experience with these is that it emulated a double feed in an M&P Core 1.0. But in three different VP9s it simply emulated a failure to fire, and was easily cleared using a tap, rack. This was side by side testing in the same range session.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    The Type 3 Malfunction is in effect a Failure to Extract. A round is fired and the case does not extract or does not fully extract and ends up back in the chamber. The slide cycles and strips a new round from the magazine which has no where to go since the chamber is Occupied. You now have a dead trigger, a slide out of battery and a traffic jam in the feed-way/chamber.

    Some pistols you can extract the magazine directly. Some pistols you need to lock the slide to the rear in order to extract the magazine. Reason being the live round is both pinched between to breach face and empty case as well as being held on to by the magazine feed lips. By locking the slide to the rear you relieve the pinching/clamping force on the live round.

    Regarding the Type 3 simulator devices I'm not sure I would trust that they would create the same exact malfunction. They may have the same remediation but I just don't know.

    A type 3 malfunction can be created/simulated with live rounds, dummy rounds or a mixture of the previously mentioned rounds and empty cases. As follows: Lock the slide to the rear. Insert your choice of round/case into the chamber. Insert loaded magazine. Ease the slide forward which will strip a round and create your malfunction. Extra care required if there is a live round in the chamber so that you don't pickle the primer with the round from the magazine, hence the "ease the slide forward". No the malfunction did not occur during live fire but you can still go through the process of clearing the malfunction.

    Now my 2 cents on the topic. I trained for many years with Chuck Taylor (RIP). Chuck was a huge proponent of proper weapons manipulation. He regularly drilled malfunctions. What I did multiple times on a few different guns (Glocks & 1911s) was break extractors doing Type 3 malfunction clearance drills. After a wile I started faking the drill. I went through the motions but didn't force my extractor over a chambered case.

    The ultimate clearance test occurred on one fateful weekend. I had trained with Chuck the previously weekend. Did my requisite malfunction clearance drills when Chuck called for them. The next weekend I was shooting a drill with Larry Vickers standing next to me and watching. I experienced my first ever shooting induced Type 3 malfunction. I immediately went into the clearance procedure and fired one more shot and again Type 3 Malfunction and the clearance procedure was ineffective. Larry asked to see my 1911. He looked into the breach and said "I hope you have a backup gun because this one is hosed".

    My supposition was that the previous weekend's clearance drills stressed my extractor and it was destined for failure. The interesting fact is that once the extractor broke, a sure cause of a Type 3 malfunction, the clearance procedure is worthless without a extractor that can hold on to the case.
    Right, from what I've seen of those failures to extract is that even if you are theoretically going through the same motions of locking the slide back, removing the mag, racking multiple times, the feel would be different from clearing a malfunction created by those training devices. I would expect those devices to fall out of the gun relatively easily once the slide is locked back and mag removed, and the rack rack rack at the end would be more or less a formality. From what I've seen of actual failures to extract, you really need to be deliberate and rack properly so that the slide has some momentum going forwards to try and jump the extractor hook back over the rim. Can't just jiggle the slide back and forth and hope stuff falls out of the gun, which would probably work with the training devices in question.

    The reason I ask all of this is because I suspect for people who have never seen a real failure to extract, they may use this device and practice in a manner that will clear a feedway stoppage, but not an actual failure to extract. Plus there is a lot of ambiguity around the term "type 3", and there is a lot of confusion about the distinctions between different kinds of malfunctions, so I think a lot of people may not even understand mechanically what the device is really simulating and how that corresponds to what happens with real malfunctions.
    Last edited by Eyesquared; 09-05-2020 at 03:36 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    They had Cooper's Another Country for 26.00.

    That's half what I usually see it so I grabbed it.

    Had a copy in the 90s but lost on a move somewhere.
    Thanks for mentioning that. I just ordered a copy too.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    The reason I ask all of this is because I suspect for people who have never seen a real failure to extract, they may use this device and practice in a manner that will clear a feedway stoppage, but not an actual failure to extract. Plus there is a lot of ambiguity around the term "type 3", and there is a lot of confusion about the distinctions between different kinds of malfunctions, so I think a lot of people may not even understand mechanically what the device is really simulating and how that corresponds to what happens with real malfunctions.
    As I noted in an earlier thread I believe we should get away from the 'tacticool' verbage and identify by 'fail to....feed, fire, extract, eject. In reality you can get by with 'pistol doesn't go boom, I tap, rack and roll, then try to shoot, if that doesn't work I unload the pistol clear the chamber, and reload' if the shooter knows in detail how to clear the chamber.

    Everyone trains the 'double feed fail to extract' which was described above. I've seen a lot of real life FTEX's on the firing line and they also routinely present with the slide forward and the extractor not engaging the case head, or with the round firmly in the chamber and the extractor still engaged.

    In the case of the slide forward and the extractor not engaged, with striker fired pistols especially, the shooter often thinks the slide is slightly out of battery and taps it forward. This wastes time as the shooter attempts to fire a round and then goes through FTF clearance, this results in either setting up the FTEX as is commonly done, or presents the shooter with the slide locked forward scenario. In any event the shooter has wasted time.

    By the way, this seems to be a good time to emphasize that if you are standing still and shooting, you are probably wrong, unless, of course, you are behind cover. Likewise if you are standing still trying to clear a malfunction/stoppage, unless you are behind cover you are likely to be dead wrong. The problem is that on square ranges with multiple shooters this is hard to safely train, which is a good reason to do these drills solo or when it is just you and a buddy - take turns in that case.

    Back to the FTEX clearance...in the third case, with the slide forward, round firmly in the chamber, extractor still engaged, the shooter will often try immediate action and find the slide immobile. In this case they have a shot at perhaps clearing this mess as quickly as can be done: get a firm overhand grip on the back of the slide, take the master hand away from the pistol and forcefully come into the backstrap as high and hard as possible. You need to grab the grip as you accomplish this. Often the impact will extract the case, sometimes the extractor jumps off the case rim and the slide comes to the rear. It is also not unlikely that some pistols will hit the deck while training this method.

    Finally, regarding slide manipulation, the shooter needs to have a firm grip on the slide, and get serious about moving the slide forward to positively engage the extractor, and positively to the rear to extract the case. If they don't do this, they will be unlikely to extract the stuck case.

    Let's be honest, some shooters just won't have the requisite strength to work the slide and hold the pistol's frame relatively immobile. In working with such shooters what I've found effective is having them lock the slide to the rear, grip the pistol firmly and disengage the slide catch/release using a finger or thumb. I've had some folks need to use their support hand to release the slide in order to hold the frame as motionless as possible. With the frame held rigid and the slide released in this manner all the spring energy is used to propel the slide forward and overcome the extractor.

    I had such good success with this that I believe this should be the first step, it's what I do know rather than overhand racking from the get go.

    Sor4ry if I rambled, hope this makes sense and is somewhat helpful.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    As I noted in an earlier thread I believe we should get away from the 'tacticool' verbage and identify by 'fail to....feed, fire, extract, eject. In reality you can get by with 'pistol doesn't go boom, I tap, rack and roll, then try to shoot, if that doesn't work I unload the pistol clear the chamber, and reload' if the shooter knows in detail how to clear the chamber.

    Everyone trains the 'double feed fail to extract' which was described above. I've seen a lot of real life FTEX's on the firing line and they also routinely present with the slide forward and the extractor not engaging the case head, or with the round firmly in the chamber and the extractor still engaged.

    In the case of the slide forward and the extractor not engaged, with striker fired pistols especially, the shooter often thinks the slide is slightly out of battery and taps it forward. This wastes time as the shooter attempts to fire a round and then goes through FTF clearance, this results in either setting up the FTEX as is commonly done, or presents the shooter with the slide locked forward scenario. In any event the shooter has wasted time.

    By the way, this seems to be a good time to emphasize that if you are standing still and shooting, you are probably wrong, unless, of course, you are behind cover. Likewise if you are standing still trying to clear a malfunction/stoppage, unless you are behind cover you are likely to be dead wrong. The problem is that on square ranges with multiple shooters this is hard to safely train, which is a good reason to do these drills solo or when it is just you and a buddy - take turns in that case.

    Back to the FTEX clearance...in the third case, with the slide forward, round firmly in the chamber, extractor still engaged, the shooter will often try immediate action and find the slide immobile. In this case they have a shot at perhaps clearing this mess as quickly as can be done: get a firm overhand grip on the back of the slide, take the master hand away from the pistol and forcefully come into the backstrap as high and hard as possible. You need to grab the grip as you accomplish this. Often the impact will extract the case, sometimes the extractor jumps off the case rim and the slide comes to the rear. It is also not unlikely that some pistols will hit the deck while training this method.

    Finally, regarding slide manipulation, the shooter needs to have a firm grip on the slide, and get serious about moving the slide forward to positively engage the extractor, and positively to the rear to extract the case. If they don't do this, they will be unlikely to extract the stuck case.

    Let's be honest, some shooters just won't have the requisite strength to work the slide and hold the pistol's frame relatively immobile. In working with such shooters what I've found effective is having them lock the slide to the rear, grip the pistol firmly and disengage the slide catch/release using a finger or thumb. I've had some folks need to use their support hand to release the slide in order to hold the frame as motionless as possible. With the frame held rigid and the slide released in this manner all the spring energy is used to propel the slide forward and overcome the extractor.

    I had such good success with this that I believe this should be the first step, it's what I do know rather than overhand racking from the get go.

    Sor4ry if I rambled, hope this makes sense and is somewhat helpful.
    100% agree with what you have written. Regarding the 3rd case with the stuck case in the chamber and slide stuck forward, the same method of clearing works well for rounds that don't fit the chamber and consequently lock the gun up just slightly out of battery. That being said it's harder to execute on a gun with less slide exposed like a CZ. First time I saw this done was with someone's limited division CZ tac sport and it made me a little nervous to see someone hit the grip like that with a loaded non-drop safe gun, with a live round most of the way into the chamber. The second time I saw someone do this it was with a .40 cal STI and they ended up breaking their pinned grip safety, which came back to cause more malfunctions on another stage.
    Last edited by Eyesquared; 09-05-2020 at 09:29 PM.

  7. #17
    That is why I case gauge everything I load.

  8. #18
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    That is why I case gauge everything I load.
    Every round in every magazine.

    And inspect primer, case mouth, hollow point and rim.

    And I don't chamber them more than thrice. I mark them and put them at the bottom of the last mag.

    And I shoot them up twice a year.

    It's not paranoia, it's...my process.

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