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Thread: Are we good with Sig now?

  1. #71
    Abducted by Aliens Borderland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aisin Gioro View Post
    The P225A1 is a good example of why I can't get comfortable with SIG these days, even when they get things right. By all accounts, the design and execution was very solid, and it was a fairly worthy successor to the classic P-series guns. The original P225 is one of my favourite pistols for pure shooting fun, and both the old and the new versions fit my hand like they were made for it. Yet, underneath it all, the entire plan seems to have been a cynical move by SIG to to dump a lot of P239 parts, which they were on the verge of dropping, into a half-new gun, in effect creating a cosmetically different "new product" with remaindered supplies. It's like how some European supermarkets put curdled milk on sale as yogurt.
    I have a P-239. I'm looking for another 9 mm with SRT. Very hard to find at a reasonable price.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  2. #72
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    My P-225a1 is one of the best pistols I own. I am converting to mostly DA/SA since I’m also moving to AIWB and prefer that system for that application.

    I was disappointed that SiG discontinued the P225a1, but not really surprised. Not so much because SiG is largely a Charlie Foxtrot, but because of the mania for large magazine capacity. There are a great many pistols available with a higher capacity in the same form factor, and often lighter in weight.

    I’m more concerned with how the gun fits me and reliability. Mine is extremely accurate and reliable. I’ll buy another as a backup when I find one. They seem to be hard to find just now.
    Semper Paratus,

    Steve

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Playing with new toys.

    My agency is issuing P320s. Though I shoot the 320 slightly better I will continue to exercise my option to carry a personally owned Glock because I don’t fully trust the 320. I don’t believe the 320 has been full “debugged.”

    I’m not worried about QC with our issued guns due to the contract requirements (our guns have a unique SKU) but I do not have similar faith in the QC of commercial guns including those sold via SIGs Individual Officer Program. We’ve had issues with some commercial purchase P365s and have a a couple fail armorer inspection due to QC/manufacturing defects.

    SIG won the MHS by undercutting Glock on price, basically supplying the M17/18 to the military near cost. This was actually brilliant because they will more than make up the profits via the collateral sales generated by the US military adoption.

    SIG has also been engaging in real innovation in firearms design but they have issues with both execution /QC and with following through on projects and product lines. For example promising caliber conversions and alternate configurations of modular systems and never actually releasing them.
    I had also heard about this issue with Sig LE contract vs civilian sales product quality for several years from several unconfirmed sources. Recently a Sig LE sales rep confirmed this and did so without inquiry or solicitation by me. He is a friend and is former LE and, interestingly, not really a gun guy. He was trying to sell me on the LE 320 Pro Compact and advised me if I wanted one to make sure and order through the LE sales as the guns were made differently than the civilian counterparts with higher quality components and assembly.
    Not a fan of the 320 design or trigger. Sig took an existing hammer fired DAO model (250) and retrofitted a striker mechanism into it instead of creating a SF pistol from the ground up. As a result, the barrel sits higher than necessary. Just not a well executed design and the whole modularity concept has, after several years of production, never come to fruition. The 365 is an innovative gun, probably where they should have started with SF designs. But, the QC has been horrible with the newly released products which took some time for them to correct and, was ridiculous for a company with their reputation and price levels. I am a big fan of the P22_ DA/SA models.

  4. #74
    Vending Machine Operator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Actsda View Post
    I had also heard about this issue with Sig LE contract vs civilian sales product quality for several years from several unconfirmed sources. Recently a Sig LE sales rep confirmed this and did so without inquiry or solicitation by me. He is a friend and is former LE and, interestingly, not really a gun guy. He was trying to sell me on the LE 320 Pro Compact and advised me if I wanted one to make sure and order through the LE sales as the guns were made differently than the civilian counterparts with higher quality components and assembly.
    I know that this was already a known fact, but it always makes me heated. It's just such a shady way of doing business.

    To be clear, I have no issue with LE guns have an extra step of quality control at the factory, or special law enforcement guns that are marketed as such like the 870 Police before Remington went to shit. But a gun that is marketed as being the same (Sig extensively markets the P320 as a law enforcement selection) but is in fact quantitatively, measurably different and inferior is so dishonest.

    I have used Blue Label to buy a Glock and I've bought commercial Glocks. The only different was an extra mag and the label color.
    State Government Attorney | Beretta, Glock, CZ & S&W Fan

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by LockedBreech View Post
    I know that this was already a known fact, but it always makes me heated. It's just such a shady way of doing business.

    To be clear, I have no issue with LE guns have an extra step of quality control at the factory, or special law enforcement guns that are marketed as such like the 870 Police before Remington went to shit. But a gun that is marketed as being the same (Sig extensively markets the P320 as a law enforcement selection) but is in fact quantitatively, measurably different and inferior is so dishonest.

    I have used Blue Label to buy a Glock and I've bought commercial Glocks. The only different was an extra mag and the label color.
    Same experience here. From what I’ve seen, there is no difference in quality between blue label and civilian glocks.

  6. #76
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Actsda View Post
    Same experience here. From what I’ve seen, there is no difference in quality between blue label and civilian glocks.
    Technically correct, but be aware that there can be differences between LEO/LEO contract Glocks and commercial Glocks, such as the LEO M models with different internal component coatings, the Brazilian police Gen5 G22, some of the FBI contract Glocks, etc.

    Best, Jon

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Actsda View Post
    Same experience here. From what I’ve seen, there is no difference in quality between blue label and civilian glocks.
    Agency sale guns get a few extra QC checks but there is no difference in the parts or production line.

    You also need to be specific when talking about “LE” guns.

    The guns sold via Blue label/IOP are standard production guns which come with an extra mag and may get an extra QC check or two.

    Some large agency contract guns are made to the specifications of the contract such as the FBI/DOJ contract Glock M models and the DHS P320.

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by JonInWA View Post
    Technically correct, but be aware that there can be differences between LEO/LEO contract Glocks and commercial Glocks, such as the LEO M models with different internal component coatings, the Brazilian police Gen5 G22, some of the FBI contract Glocks, etc.

    Best, Jon
    I was speaking generally based on blue label and used blue label gun purchases and on the numerous Glocks I have handled over the years that were in LE service. The M model, as you pointed out, was a special contract gun with specific non-standard specs, as were the Gen 5 .40's sold to the Brazilian police. I am aware of them but was speaking generally. Thanks, though, that was a good point.

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Agency sale guns get a few extra QC checks but there is no difference in the parts or production line.

    You also need to be specific when talking about “LE” guns.

    The guns sold via Blue label/IOP are standard production guns which come with an extra mag and may get an extra QC check or two.

    Some large agency contract guns are made to the specifications of the contract such as the FBI/DOJ contract Glock M models and the DHS P320.
    Wasn't aware of the extra QC checks, but that doesn't surprise me. Glock made their company on US LE sales and service and I have always had good experiences through their LE reps and customer service. I was aware of the extra mag with blue label guns but, as a side note, for some reason that doesn't apply to the G43 and G42, at least not in my experience. Don't know about the 43X and 48.
    Thanks

  10. #80
    This all is just a damn shame. For those old enough to remember, it would be hard to overstate how reliable, durable and accurate the P series guns were in the late 80's and the 90's. They were, along with the 92, considered the most reliable semi-autos. My off duty gun in the early 90's was a P225 and it was, at least over the 10K I put through it, extremely accurate and one of the most if not the most reliable guns I've owned. It never, not once, malfunctioned. Not even an ammo or mag related malf, and that was with tons of reloads, the majority of which were cheap lead reloads from the LE range, which choked in a lot of other guns. It's replacement, a late 90's P239 has been just as accurate and a very reliable gun. Recently manufactured P series guns that I have handled and shot have been ok, but I have noticed inconsistent triggers and a propensity to have creepy SA triggers which may be due to the SRT parts or just bad QC/manufacturing. The accuracy has been hit and miss as well.

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