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Thread: Has 2020's Riots Changed Your Mind On Shotguns? Still Viable?

  1. #1

    Has 2020's Riots Changed Your Mind On Shotguns? Still Viable?

    Every few years on various forums there's a 100+ page thread on whether or not the shotgun still has a role to play in the land of carbines. And half the people say yes, and half the people say no.

    Well, I hate to be "that guy" starting up the most recent iteration but the rioting of 2020 has changed my opinion on shotguns. If Kyle Rittenhouse had a 12 gauge pump, he'd likely be dead.

    6 months ago I was in the camp of "shotguns still have a role" and even "shotguns are my primary form of home defense" But now after seeing what I've seen, I am changing my mind.

    If I were standing in front of my home or business protecting it from this mob I would not want to have a 12 gauge shotgun. Videos circulating show they aren't afraid of guns and even taunt the protectors into shooting them. As we saw the munchkin sex offender request to be shot multiple times. And once you shoot one of them, the rest keep chasing you.

    I mean, I wouldn't want to be there at all, but if I had to be because my family was in the structure behind me, then I think I'd want to have a carbine.

    Then again maybe nothing has changed in 2020 and the answer is still the same. Shotgun for routine defense and carbine on standby for special bad scenarios. Generally we seem to have advance notice of a riot with time to get get the carbine ready. Like having a sedan for daily commuting and a 4WD truck for emergency backcountry use.

    I guess what has changed is if you thought the shotgun was a sufficient primary defense weapon then you should change your tune and also supplement with a carbine. But all of us here probably have both. Maybe I'm just rambling.

    But, what I think we're seeing in 2020 is a paradigm shift where the bad guys come in swarms, chase you even if you have a gun, and their friends chase you even after you've shot multiple of them. 6 months ago I wouldn't have thought those last two to be realistic. I would have always assumed if you shot one the rest would scatter. So it's reframing how I consider differnet tools in the box, including the shotgun.

  2. #2
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    What resources outside of other forums have you researched or otherwise considered before asking these questions?

  3. #3
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    I do not want to draw too many conclusions from a single event, even one as disturbing as the riots. There are a few reasons for that. First, my living situation is rural, not urban. While I work in a city that will be the largest city in Alabama, it is still a city in Alabama with all that entails. Second, I am not likely to be going toward any riot; my goal would be to get away from one as peacefully and quietly as possible. I have no plans to engage if I do not need to do so. I am not getting involved in a running gunfight unless I have no option not to do so. I am looking to disengage as quickly and safely as possible.

    That being said, I think there is a third reason. There is no doubt that shot for shot, the 12-gauge is more damaging than the 5.56 when one is using proper ammo. Instead of needing multiple center mass hits on someone to stop the threat, the 12-gauge usually needs just one. When watching the Rittenhouse videos, you can tell that many of the people watching the fights are not seeing the "video game and movie reaction" to getting shot and being emboldened by it. People are not blown backwards and instantly knocked out of the fight like entertainment has conditioned them to expect. So there is a feeling of "that guy did not slow down too much, so that weapon may not be too bad". The one exception is the shot to the bicep that took one individual out of the fight. That exception is one of the reasons that I do not put much faith in any single event. If that person had not initially hesitated, the Rittenhouse event would likely have ended with Mr. Rittenhouse not walking away. That person was not committed to the fight as seen before and after the shot to the bicep. A committed adversary would have pressed the fight.

    There is also a psychological impact to seeing the damage from a 12-gauge that may deter others. The damage from a 12-gauge makes an impression on others. For example, a single shot from a 12-gauge to the bicep with buck shot would have done much more serious appearing damage to that arm while also ending the confrontation. The other center mass shootings would likely have only needed a single shot to decisively end those confrontations. While people would not be blown backwards, center mass hits from the 12-gauge usually end the fight needing less rounds. Uncommitted adversaries may decide that there are easier targets than a kid with a 12-gauge who is taking down people with single shots. It is likely that Mr. Rittenhouse would have fired fewer shots from a shotgun.

    There are also optics for later. A shotgun is considered more socially acceptable than a carbine; former VPs of both parties support their use. Carbines, especially ARs, are still considered by many who may be on a jury of your peers as evil black rifles. Firing fewer shots is also an advantage later as entertainment has conditioned people to think that only one shot is needed to stop someone. The carbine likely needs more shots per person than the shotgun, looking bad to jurors. Stupid but true.

    That being said, there are no absolutes. I still choose the shotgun because I shoot it much better than the carbine because I shoot shotguns a lot more often than carbines. If I shot the AR from a a young age, my answer would likely be somewhat different as I would not have the experience with shotguns that I do. I have both but for my experience and needs, the shotgun is a better fit. A shotgun is also more useful to me on a daily basis where my real usage is likely dealing with an injured animal hit by a vehicle.

    And not all shotguns are pump actions. A Beretta 1301 or Benelli M1 would likely be as reliable as any AR with the limited amount of shooting that was seen on those vidoes.
    Last edited by farscott; 09-02-2020 at 03:32 AM.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Maybe I'm just rambling.
    Yes.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  5. #5
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    If Kyle Rittenhouse had a 12 gauge pump, he'd likely be dead.
    If Kyle had a Benelli M4 that night he'd of got the "hat trick" and deaded three commies instead of two.
    Might of even got a few pellets into "acid washed jeans flying kick attempt dude".

    Shotgun is also easier to make hits on small fast moving targets in the dark obscured by smoke.
    Like heads.
    That becomes important when the bad guys start wearing armor.

    See how that wild speculation goes?
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  6. #6
    Member kjr_29's Avatar
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    The 2020 riots and general societal upheaval in major democratic led metropolitan areas changed my position towards the shotgun, not away from.

    Semi-auto for me, not pump action. All these recent engagements in the news are close range, which is the nature of self defense shootings. Shotgun > AR in that scenario until it gets to volume of fire, but by then, the problem set is totally different.

    To me, the biggest issue with a shotgun will be keeping the gun topped off with ammo (and sourcing that ammo if not a reloader).


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  7. #7
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    Only thing that's changed in my mind for my shotgun, is I'm wishing my grab-n-o bandolier had a different load out compliment. It's about 1/3 each solid slugs, segmented slugs, #00 buck. Thinking I need to change it to all #00 or something else. It what it is as that's what I had on hand at the time.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
    TDA: Learn it. Live it. Love it.... Read these: People Management Triggers 1, 2, 3
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  8. #8
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanch View Post
    Well, I hate to be "that guy" starting up the most recent iteration but the rioting of 2020 has changed my opinion on shotguns. If Kyle Rittenhouse had a 12 gauge pump, he'd likely be dead.
    He engaged three individuals attacking him at close range, killing two. Had he been armed with a 12 gauge the third person would have had their arm blown completely off rendering them unable to still hold on to that Glock the dude had.

    If I were standing in front of my home or business protecting it from this mob I would not want to have a 12 gauge shotgun. Videos circulating show they aren't afraid of guns and even taunt the protectors into shooting them. As we saw the munchkin sex offender request to be shot multiple times. And once you shoot one of them, the rest keep chasing you.
    You speak as if that's a new phenomenon. They had a saying back in the old days in Texas: One riot, one ranger. There have been scores of occasions when an outnumbered good guy pacified an entire crowd by showing he was ready and willing to get to work with that shotgun.

    Nothing has changed.

    The vast majority of threats you will be dealing with, even in civil unrest, are going to be at relatively close range. Shotguns are the king of instantly rendering a threat unable to continue hostilities at close range.

    If you believe there is a need to engage at longer ranges, a rifle is much better suited for that.

    To paraphrase Tom Givens, if I was going into a typical residential structure to deal with bad people, I'd take a shotgun.

    If I was responding to an active shooter in a school, I'd take the rifle.

    Different weapons are good at different things. Choose what is most appropriate to your situation if you have the chance.

    Personally I have no qualms about using a shotgun to protect my property in a time of unrest. It's a highly effective weapon and I guarantee there's no troop of anarchist thugs who have seen what I can do with one before. It will prove highly demoralizing should they force me to use it.

    But, what I think we're seeing in 2020 is a paradigm shift where the bad guys come in swarms, chase you even if you have a gun, and their friends chase you even after you've shot multiple of them.
    Rittenhouse was a scared 17 year old kid shooting extremely reluctantly and running away.

    That looks a lot different than an older man filled with resolve who is standing his ground and very deliberately sending those who would assault him home to meet Jesus once a trigger press.

    Guns don't scare bad guys.

    Determined, committed people who know how to use guns scare bad guys.
    3/15/2016

  9. #9
    How many rounds did Kyle fire that night? I think it was more than a tubes worth of 870. I can load my Virsa Max to 10 rounds, it's long and heavy. Or I can have a pistol AR with 30 or more, it's light and short.
    We could isolate Russia totally from the world and maybe they could apply for membership after 2000 years.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hufnagel View Post
    Only thing that's changed in my mind for my shotgun, is I'm wishing my grab-n-o bandolier had a different load out compliment. It's about 1/3 each solid slugs, segmented slugs, #00 buck. Thinking I need to change it to all #00 or something else. It what it is as that's what I had on hand at the time.
    I've done away with slugs completely.
    I now have Flite-Control #00 and Winchester Military #00.
    The Flite-Control is what it's loaded with and is my "precision" round (6" group at 25Y) for taking out individual threats.
    The Military buckshot is for getting pellets into as many zombies as I can per shot (18" pattern at 25Y) if I get trapped by a mob.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

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