Uncle Scotty Stories: My First LAPD Duty Pistol

[Yung]

I first read about the options he talks about in one of the older Gun Digest books.

In the third episode of the ITTS podcast, Mr. Reitz and the featured guest, Sgt. Andy Markel, briefly discuss a sidebar about what it was like to be issued a .38 revolver for the first time, and how the firing line was managed during qualification.
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/wit...ast/e/70017044
Starts at 0:28:54.

It's relatively new. Here's the thread that first mentioned it.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....dly-Force-quot

[Stephanie B]

This 67 seems reasonable, given that it has the box and docs.

It's at $465 with 4.5 hours to go.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Scotty always has great stories and what's best about this one isn't the leather, ammo or the rest. What is ultra cool is that LAPD had legit gunsmiths working in the armory and Harry Davis, whom he mentioned, was one of the very best. He installed a bull barrel and some type of enhanced front sight on that gun AND installed Hurst grips. John Hurst, Fuzzy Farrant and Guy Hogue were all at the LAPD Firearms Training Unit at the same time and all made top quality revolver stocks. That revolver is a grail gun in so many ways!

[SCCY Marshal]

Tex Shoemaker custom made me a black, basketweave, brass button triple speedloader pouch when I started out in 1993. My nickname in the academy was Tackleberry. I did not find it funny.

But I find it hilarious. And wore a snap-on, six-loop Tex Shoemaker cartridge slide on my hike, today. Basketweave, no less.

[Jim Watson]

That was like watching someone read my mail. (lol)
I was lucky in that my department allowed carry of full power 357 Magnums. When My M 28-2 developed problems from too much practice with full power hand loads, all rapid fire DA, (smile)

Dave

That is scary. I would have expected an N frame to hold up for a lot of shooting. What problems and what loads?

[Dave T]

That is scary. I would have expected an N frame to hold up for a lot of shooting. What problems and what loads?

I became convinced in the academy the slow pace and generous size of the B-27 targets used during my firearms training would get me killed on the mean streets. I was a shooter and a hand loader and settled on a good dose of 2400 behind Speer's 160g 3/4 Jacked Soft Point. While still in the academy I would go out to the desert on weekends and shoot a couple hundred rounds at the bottoms of 24"X14" cardboard soft-drink cases. I'd set 2 or 3 of them out in the desert at 7-15 yards and shoot as fast as I could (DA only) and still get good hits (middle of the cardboard). I kept pushing myself to get better and better.

Once out of the academy I would go shooting 2-3 times a week doing much the same thing. In the 6 months before I got off probation I fired in excess of 2000 rounds, again of full power magnums, all rapid fire DA. The guns started skipping occasionally from the pounding of the heavy N-frame cylinder against the bolt. It was also starting to spit lead or jacket material pretty bad. And every once in a while the trigger would bind and it would not fire. That scared me.

I intended to have it rebuilt and found the M-58 as a temp replacement. At the end of my probation we were given the opportunity to qualify with semi autos and I had a new MK IV Series 70 Government Model in 45 ACP. And the rest as they say is history.

Dave

[TCinVA]

If you are training heavily with the revolver pushing speed that extra mass in the cylinder takes more force to get turning, which increases the stresses on all the parts that have to work together to fire the shot. The 6 shot N Frames in .357 Magnum have really, really heavy cylinders. Which actually makes them more vulnerable to problems if they aren't handled just right. It's really common to see poor lockup, bent yokes and cranes, bent ejector rods, etc.

One instance of a jackass flipping the cylinder shut on a .357 N frame can be enough to cause problems. It's often difficult for the untrained eye to spot issues in a revolver they purchase caused either by manufacturing problems, assembly problems, or stupid human tricks played with the gun after it's shipped. Or with all those things combined.

Revolvers are lovely things when they are done right, but you can go to any gunshow and lay out 100 new and used revolvers and I'd lay a couple of Benjamins that a well-trained gunsmith who knows revolvers would probably find problems with at least 70 of them due to the aforementioned issues.

Back in the day larger departments had gunsmiths on staff because they had to in order to keep their sidearms up and running. Factory trained S&W armorers back then were damn near to being gunsmiths as well. They didn't learn how to turn out parts on a lathe or mill, but they learned how to make their own tools and fit parts to specific guns by working alongside factory gunsmiths working on revolvers sent in for repair.

[UNM1136]

Working private security in the early mid 90s I carried a M10 in some of the same shitholes I police now. I never felt undergunned, because my issue M10 (and occasionally M66 and one summer a borrowed M19) would flat out shoot, and I shot them bery well. SWC/SWCHPs sure made pretty, easily scored targets. I also ran HKS speed loaders and speed strips.

pat

[Rex G]

I thoroughly enjoyed the video. Memories... Thanks for posting the link.

I started Houston, Texas PD’s academy in November 1983. Speed-loaders, made by Dade, carried in a double pouch, were well-established, by then. The lessons of the Newhall Massacre had been embraced. Houston was especially violent, in those boom-town days. We were required to buy and use two Dade loaders, during the academy. We saw older sworn officers still using 6- and 12-loop belt slides, without speedloaders, but I do not recall anyone stating when speed-loaders had been introduced. Dump boxes and pouches were, apparently, never a thing in this general region.

The more “gunny” among us tended to switch to HKS or Safariland speed-loaders after being sworn, because a Dade loader, if dropped, would spill the cartridges. I switched to HKS, and added a 6-round belt slide. Technically, carrying more than two reloads, on the duty belt, was against uniform policy, but very few supervisors let this concern them. Speed-loaders were optional for sworn personnel, but very few who started the academy with speed-loaders, opted to discontinue using them, until being eligible to switch to an auto-loader.

There was a list of several S&W K- and L-Frames, at least one Ruger double-action Six, probably the Security Six, and the Colt Python, all .357 Magnum, all 4”, that were OK for academy training, if we already owned them, prior to starting the academy. Otherwise, we were directed to order an L-Frame, Model 686, 586, 581, or 681, from a list of several law-enforcement-oriented FFLs in the area. The police credit union would finance the purchase, and the payments would be payroll-deducted, over time. Adjustable sights were strongly encouraged. After being sworn, we could use other DA revolvers, 3” or longer, for use in uniform, and 2” and longer for back-up and when not in uniform. We had to carry 24/7/365, and were “always on duty.” (No autoloaders for first-year rookies.)

I opted to order a 686, for the duty holster, and a 2.5” Model 66, for off-the-clock. Then, while waiting for delivery of my 686 and 66, I bought a 581 at a local gun store. Because I did not yet own that 581 on the academy start date, I could not use it during cadet training, nor bring it onto academy property, until a designated date just before graduation, when we could qual with additional weapons.

IIRC, I had bought my Model 60 J-snub shortly before starting the academy.

Acceptable duty and personal-time revolver cartridges, upon being sworn, were .38 Special, on the low end, and .45 ACP and 45 Colt, on the high end. (Yes, .41 and .44 Magnums were OK’ed, and guess who wrecked his hands shooting N-Frames, with his K/L-sized hands?) A 9mm revolver would have probably been OK’ed, as 9mm was an allowed auto-loader cartridge.

After one full year of sworn service, a Houston police officer could transition to autoloading pistols for duty, personal time, and/or back-up. Most of the above remained so, until about the mid-Nineties.

[WobblyPossum]

I very much enjoyed that video. I love learning about the history of the profession and Mr. Reitz is an excellent speaker. I’m still hoping he releases the additional volumes of his Art of Modern Gunfighting book.