Was back in INS, from what senior officers have said... but not touched on with OFO.Originally Posted by HCM
No idea about Customs.
Was back in INS, from what senior officers have said... but not touched on with OFO.
No idea about Customs.
Did two long term TDY’s to Glynco/FAD back in 2008 and again 2011. Pushed thru big 48-man classes. Anyway, after one class had an unusually high “did not qualify” students on qual day, I’ll never forget on exasperated FI turn to me and say “we never had these problems when we issued the Glock “. Enjoy your new G19 !!
Dagga Boy and others might have some slight disagreement on your assertion about the LEM trigger being unnecessary and not worth the effort.
I agree that a P2000 is probably not the most user-friendly platform for the .40 cartridge; my personal preference in a hammer-fired HK chambered in .40 would be with the P30/P30L-a bit more mass for recoil absorbtion and I prefer their ergonomics, and the extent to which they can be individually tailored (although the P2000 does have 4 backstrap options as opposed to the 3 of the P30).
HCM has probably hit the nail of the head-individuals counting on the long triggerpull inherent to LEM before a "bang" occurs are going to be disasterously surprised, unless they have sufficient familiarization and training.
On the other hand, Glocks have a heavier "wall" prior to the actual break, where the HK LEM wall is softer with a bit less of a transition.
It's really a matter of decision, taste and training. Either system/action is eminently workable, but for threat management under stress I think the LEM is a bit more preferable.
My thought is that for a dedicated shooter, the Glock action is faster, but for a non-dedicated shooter the LEM is probably safer, albeit slower in a pure shootablity context. I doubt that there is a real-world negative to the difference in shootability speed between the two systems.
I don't doubt that the Glock is far easier to qualify with, but in my opinion that's only one parameter of selection criteria; use and user-friendliness (ergonomics) to a broad spectrum of users and safety (holistically) are others, just to mention a few.
I like and appreciate Glocks, but there are some cogent reasons that a LEO needs to have their eyes wide open in electing to choose them, or a similar (e.g., VP 9/40, SIG P320) SFA pistol. And once chosen, a thorough familiarization and training program, both initial/transitionary and on-going.
Best, Jon
Last edited by JonInWA; 08-29-2020 at 05:24 PM.
Problem being OFO does not care for it. You got a gun, passed the qualification... you are good. I believe I mentioned it before, but I shot shy of 2,000 rounds at FLETC. That was also a pilot program that we were a part of, where prior to the first day on the range, we spent three two hour blocks of just dry fire on the E range (they didn’t use the E range guns because the triggers on them were regular DAO). Figure maybe 300 to 450 more rounds, if it was live fire familiarization.
Guess how many my group shot individually... right around 300 (if everyone was identical to me, 303). And my group was somewhat squared away... so that is the higher end from my port. I guess it is better than nothing, right?
With COVID, I get it. But the differences with the triggers get me worried about some of the less gun knowledgeable officers. Hell, I had a coworker have me stop by his house because he couldn’t unload his gun, prior to putting on those grip tapes. Walked in, jacked the round out of the chamber... and said what’s the problem. “Oh, you have to really pull it back.” [emoji15]
I hated the LEM trigger, but I got perfect qualifications with that gun. If we could have bought them... I would have. Not because I loved the gun, but because it was pretty much brand new and I went through FLETC with it.
I think we have beaten the LEM trigger and P2000 to death over the last 10 years. Settled science is that the P2000 yields less shooting performance for a given level of skill, but offers significant benefits in the non shooting part of handling a gun and using it defensively. I have a soft spot for it as it took care of business with this big Western Diamondback that was threatening my wife and dog earlier this year.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
We beat the dead horse, you shoot the snake dead.....I think we have beaten the LEM trigger and P2000 to death over the last 10 years. Settled science is that the P2000 yields less shooting performance for a given level of skill, but offers significant benefits in the non shooting part of handling a gun and using it defensively. I have a soft spot for it as it took care of business with this big Western Diamondback that was threatening my wife and dog earlier this year.
Best, Jon
I shot one of the early issue G19 a few months ago (don't ask) and thought it has decent sights and a slightly better trigger than my Blue Label G19 bought about 15 yrs ago.
Back in the INS/BP DOJ days with the 72 round qual (360 points) I thought it was a decent qual with some training value. That was with the old Beretta 96D. When DHS/CBP OFO was formed and we went to the Customs' 30 round qual we legacy INS felt like the whole firearms program was dumbed down for the benefit of the legacy Customs officers. They were still shooting their G17s until the transition to the P2000. Those of us that were "shooters" still feel that the program has been substantially dumbed down however the newer officers (post 2004) don't know the difference. The transition to the P2000, for me, was welcomed as, even though I shot the Beretta well ( I was "Top Gun" in my academy class) I welcomed the much shorter trigger pull of the P2000. It was close to that of my USPc that I bought through the INS employee purchase program back in 2001.
All the above said, I'd like to see a return to the old INS/BP DOJ 72 round qual. It should be much easier with 9mm and the Glock. I don't know if upper management in D.C. has any inclination to do that, but since firearms training is usually the first thing on the budget chopping block, I doubt it. No hard corps upper management since before Doris Meissner. NONE in DHS.
I would have bought my P2000 if I could have when I retired but "Slick Willie" stopped that for Feds and it still hasn't been reinstated (hear that Mr. President!!)
Unless it’s life or death related it’s all bullshit.
So my brother in law got his new DHS G19 MOS. Transition training consisted of turning in his P2000 being given a G19 and three mags in a box, being told to load up and qualify. He did end up qualifying but it wasn’t pretty I guess.
No transition training. At all. I don’t know anything about government law enforcement but this seems sort of messed up.
I am not going to publicly post his duty station. I can’t imagine the entire country is like this? Or is it. His agency is CBP.
He obtained 1000 rounds of 9mm and a few pointers from me and has a local range that lets him shoot for free so hopefully he can train himself up to a minimal standard.
I’m sure CBP has a lesson plan including minimum time and ammo for the transition. We do a 4 hour block including field stripping, maintenance, 100–200 rounds of drills /fan fire, and at least 2 successful qualifications. It’s not much but better than “here you go sport.”
If local managers don’t give a damn and the firearms lead is a go along /get along type it’s irrelevant. Someone likely signed off that your BIL wa provides that transition training and falsifying training records is a big deal if someone were to report it.
Last edited by HCM; 09-26-2020 at 07:59 PM.
My sojourn into INS Inspections firearms training was no better than the current BS in CBP OFO.
Yes we shot the 360 course but there was ZERO training. You reported to the range - shot the qual course 1 or 2 times, cleaned your gun and then gas to either report back to the POE or take leave for the rest of the day. The SFI was a tool who thought the solution to females having trouble qualifying was to scream at them. He managed to get one to throw her gun down and leave the range in tears. And if you could shoot well he saw you as a threat who “needed to be taken down a notch.” What’s the old saying ? No man is useless, he can always serve as a bad example.
It was a far cry from my prior and subsequent duty stations.
PS - A co-worker who was both a retired cop and Vietnam vet learned the tough guy SFI was actually a Draft dodger who went to Canada to avoid Vietnam and was part of President Carter’s amnesty. Said co-worker never missed an opportunity to work references to “Canadian Special Forces” into any interaction with him. Apparently he got the job because his mother was a teacher who worked summers as a seasonal inspector. You can’t make this stuff up.
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