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Thread: Peaceful protests, vehicle fighting, and kiddos

  1. #21
    If unavoidable it makes me think that:

    I want 15+ 20 round mags for my 9mm P30s and/or probably a AR / AK pistol with brace and 10+ 30 round mags.

    If I did not have a rifle and pistol, I would have 2 full size high capacity service pistols, anything can break.

    The reason for so many pistol mags is ease/speed of deployment and getting it out of sight as needed.

    I would much rather work with a AR/AK if possible rather than a pistol.

    Thoughts ?

  2. #22
    Agree with Duke. Too many variables to plan it all out.

    I started keeping 33rd Glock mags within reach of the drivers seat after the motorcycle thugs attacked the guy in the Range Rover in NYC. If the situation devolves to a shooting I donít want to have to worry about reloads.

  3. #23
    they don't think like us blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Agree with Duke. Too many variables to plan it all out.

    I started keeping 33rd Glock mags within reach of the drivers seat after the motorcycle thugs attacked the guy in the Range Rover in NYC. If the situation devolves to a shooting I donít want to have to worry about reloads.
    I keep one in the console. Have for years.
    The only difference between our taliban and theirs are the duds.

  4. #24
    John Holschen recently posted some good advice. Iíll see if I can paraphrase it. If there is no lethal threat, keep moving slowly. 5-10 MPH. If the mob gets violent, drive a little faster, with the knowledge that the risk of hurting somebody increases. If they attempt to breach the vehicle or display a weapon, gun it. Drive through or over to egress.

    You should probably be on the phone with 911 or at least have a dash cam or some recording of events to justify your response. In the scenarios you suggest, start with access of a weapon. Brandish if necessary. Based on my training with CDR in their TAP/G class, when shit kicks off, itís almost as if the kids arenít there. In other words, you will likely be the focus. In a mob surrounding my vehicle, Iím not betting on that though. My kids are little, and restrained in car seats. Abandoning the vehicle isnít really an option. There are really no good options if you get pinned down. Assuming your vehicle is in good running order, you should be able to maintain movement. Damage to the vehicle is of secondary concern. Obviously, keep doors locked and windows up. Windows slightly cracked are actually harder to break, but windows up and the A/C on recirculate will reduce the impact of chemical irritants. So, short version, keep moving at all costs. If you see a firearm or Molotov cocktail displayed, accelerate and game on. Donít get pinned down.

    Michael Bane, Greg Ellifritz, and others have addressed these issues in blogs and podcasts. I would suggest looking them up.

    Bottom line, itís a sucky dangerous scenario that should be avoided at all costs.

  5. #25
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    I have zero experience with protests and riots, but I think situational awareness is doubly important when you have small kids or anyone else who can't contribute significantly to their defense. Check Google Maps traffic before and during the drive to look for traffic slow downs. What local news is available to you by radio during your trip? Consider avoiding interstates so you have more options for fleeing an area. I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of right now, but these types of considerations would be my first concern.

    We haven't had any excitement here, but I did put an extra G17 mag full of Gold Dots in my glove box, just in case. If you're all out of other options and the pistol is all you have left, then that option needs to be as viable as you can make it. In the OP's scenario, I would abandon the car and make a run for it with my kid if I had a minute or two to make some distance. The carrier would stay in the car because it's extra weight and because I can run faster with a one year old over my shoulder than I could hauling the carrier with me. The rioters' strength lies in numbers, and for every one hundred yards you can put between yourself and the riot, you'll have fewer rioters to deal with. If I'm completely stopped with the windows broken and car surrounded by people who clearly want to harm me, then I don't see what option is left besides my pistol. If there are really no other options, then it's a non-decision.

    Lastly, you could dress like a protester. Step out of the car before things get ugly while you're wearing a "silence is violence" shirt and I bet the whole dynamic would change. As the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. This plan might be dependent on your vehicle and also your acting abilities. I drive a 15 year old compact car and the one sticker on it would not trouble the kind of protesters we're discussing. However, I'm 44, so I might be too old to pull this one off. I don't know what age these people are, but my assumption is that most of them are in their 20s. In any case, avoiding a violent confrontation is preferable to engaging in one, especially when you're vastly outnumbered.

  6. #26
    I've started carrying a small thin bag (think laptop sleeve) of goodies in addition to my carry pistol. The bag is easy to grab and go plus it fits in multiple areas to include dash, center console, seat back, stroller, diaper bag, etc., and doesn't scream gun. The main compartment is kept unzipped while driving for quick and easy access of contents.

    After working through dry fire sessions with different weapons and a timer I've settled on two identical pistols (one in the bag, one on my person) and 9 spare mags. Played around with AR pistols and PDW type weapons. For me the pistol was the quickest to get first shot on target and the easiest when transitioning between targets.

    I'm driving a full size super crew truck. Kiddo rides starboard in a rear facing car seat that sits much higher than expected in relation to the door glass. When sitting in driver's seat and shooting at a threat located on the starboard side at the rear side door window, it would expose the kiddo to full muzzle blast at extremely close range and be an incredibly dangerous shot. Port side rear door window and rear window shots are awkward and slow. Getting to the rear seating area / car seat without exiting the vehicle is not quick or easy.

    We're keeping a BOB jogging stroller folded up in the truck bed so if I had to abandon the vehicle and had a quick minute I could unfold it, load the kiddo, and go. Takes about 20 seconds currently, not sure how much faster is possible.

    Might look into keeping an AR pistol in the cab to handle something like scenario 2 from my previous post.

    There are a number of shooting drills that I'll start running with a mix of dry fire and live fire over the next few days. Curious to learn what's gonna work the best and what needs improvement. The small amount of time I've invested in this has already been eye opening.
    Last edited by Old Man Winter; 08-20-2020 at 01:26 AM.

  7. #27
    I don't like absolutes and playbooks, but short of them setting the vehicle on fire, I don't think you could pay me to get out. I just don't see the percentage in giving up even the nominal barrier of the car to emerge into a 360-degree shitshow. In your case, you'd also be stuck on one side of the car, with attackers having free access to the other side of the car, and whatever dependents you left inside.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by 36trap View Post
    As I've watched footage from "peaceful protests" around the country it's clear I have a massive vulnerability when rolling through the metro area, my soon to be one year old child.

    I live in a rural area just outside of Minneapolis / St Paul. Given the happenings of 2020 we don't travel throughout the metro area as often but still need to pick up supplies, go to doctors appointments, meet with friends, etc. Since the George Floyd incident we've had a significant increase in "peaceful protests" and they've made their way to the suburbs. Recently there was a large BLM protest in our nearest suburb and we damn near got caught up in it.

    Clearly avoidance is the best possible scenario but shit happens and that may not be an option. Are there established tactics on fighting from inside the vehicle or abandoning the vehicle that factor in the kiddo variable? Does anyone touch on this in vehicle based classes?
    You might seek the advice of a criminal attorney in your area and possibly place him on retainer.

    If you're involved in an incident, contact them and the police as soon as possible.

    Have a plan, a line in the sand, and stick to that as much as possible.

  9. #29
    WOW, this thread has gotten my attention. For several years we used to have a Beretta 92, a spare mag, and a box of ammo in a small nylon shoulder bag in each car. 6 yrs ago we moved to Va and got our carry permits. So I carry an M&P compact on my hip and wife has a Glock 19 and spare mag in her purse. I have to admit that I don't always have a spare mag in my pocket but there is one in both cars. Since we started carrying we don't have the shoulder bags in the cars any more although we do use one when we walk the dog. We are in a rural area so nothing like the OP, but who knows what could happen. I think I am going to go back to the nylon bags but need to work out more mags vs a box.

  10. #30
    Mr. Shovel Lover Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36trap View Post
    I'm gonna take another shot at framing this discussion.

    Early on we had multiple examples of patrol vehicles effectively pushing through large groups of angry protestors. The driving component isn't my biggest concern. I'm more focused on best practices if they manage to disable your vehicle at the initial point of contact or shortly thereafter. These two scenarios have played out multiple times since this all began.

    Scenario 1

    Your vehicle is disabled at the initial point of contact. You're now surrounded by an angry mob attempting entry in your vehicle. Kiddo is strapped in the car seat located in the rear passenger area. Protestors are smashing the windshield and side windows. They're armed with bricks, striking weapons, and possibly have armed members providing security.
    If you stay in the car and they have guns, you and your kid are in a bullet trap or a flaming coffin. If you get out, your kid is vulnerable to bricks/rocks, and once you take one to the dome you go down for the count. It's just a question of which way you want to lose.

    To me there isn't a better example of a fight you must avoid. First sign of a slow down, turn around any way you have to, and try to work your way out. This would include cautiously running traffic lights and stop signs. You should know exactly where you are at all times, and have alternate routes in your head.
    John Wick didn't kill all those people because they broke his toaster.-MickAK

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