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Thread: Subaru Outback, Forester or Rav4??

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Navin Johnson View Post
    Invalid test.

    Puff piece for Subaru.

    Do they all have the same tires?

    Multiple drivers for each vehicle?

    Driver experience?

    Guy driving Subaru was allowed or knew to use more throttle.
    Puff piece? Perhaps. Here is another test that eliminates some of the variables you mention. Supposedly both tests are certified by the United States Auto Club for whatever that's worth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Auto_Club


  2. #92
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    About stick, I drove stick for about 25 years and three cars. Parked on step hills in the Portland NW in tight parking spaces while my daughter laughed as we see-sawed back and forth to get out. Then arthritis hit my knees and it was automatic again. Had two Foresters - great cars in our estimation.

  3. #93
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    I asked NJ if he had any first hand knowledge and/or evidence to back up his puff pieces assertion and bad faith on behalf of anyone involved on the last test.

    Silence--crickets and hooting owls in the forest silent.


    OEM tires different car to car and brand to brand. You run what you brung so to speak.

    While I would absolutely acknowledge that a pair of all season michelins would likely get you more traction than a set of Bridgestone Ecopia+ which have been optimized for mileage, the drive system is what is really driving the train. (pun intended)

    It is certainly possible that a Toyota RAV4 or Honda CRV or perhaps even a Mazda CX 3 are a bit more reliable than similar offerings from Suburu, those in the know seem to be fairly convinced who has the best "All Wheel Drive" system.

    I would also note that Consumer Reports, a publication that takes no advertising, has ranked all SUVs. 3 of the top are Subarus ( 2, 3, 6.) 1 is the Kia Telluride, 4 is the Hyundai Palisade which is essential the Kia. 5 is the BMW X5.

    I suspect for most folks, any mentioned car who work the vast majority of the time. For the at least 5 out of the past 6 winters here in KC, I did not "need" all wheel/4x4 at all. In 2009/2010/2012, It would have really been nice to have. However, if I lived in CO, in the Northeast, Alaska, parts of the upper Midwest etc. and a few other high snowfall places and thought an SUV otherwise fit the bill, the choice, based on effectiveness of drive system, in the sub 40K category, seem patently clear to me.

    Additionally, the value of being able to drive one's way out of a spot, cross a muddy highway median and have enough clearance to to drive up an over a typical urban curb speaks well for having any brand of SUV/Truck in the fleet so to speak.

    YMMV greatly.
    I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    From talking with my salesman, Subaru has a higher warranty claim percentage on manual Crosstreks than CVT's.
    Clutches... the majority of people buying a manual Crosstrek can't actually drive a stick worth a shit and burn up clutches regularly, and Subaru warranties them to "maintain the love".
    He said it's not as big of a deal in the WRX STI because it's more of an enthusiasts car with a higher percentage of people who can drive a manual.
    He said the number of people who lurched around the block on the test drive who then still bought the manual was crazy.
    They like the idea of a manual, buy a manual, then learn to drive it by burning up a few clutches under warranty.
    My Toyota truck had about 140k miles on it with the original clutch when I sold it. That was my daily driver for a 10-15 years while, and a lot of those miles were in Los Angeles and northern VA traffic.

    My Rav4 has about 160k miles on it with the original clutch. That has also been my daily driver for 15-20 years (and still counting) in northern VA.

    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    BTW: fuck manual transmissions.
    I drove a stick for my first 3 or 4 cars and then drove a stick in a F750 commercial truck for 15 years.
    Give me a automatic or CVT any day, I drive a car to get from A to B in relative comfort, not to be "engaged in the driving experience".
    Personally, I can't wait until the car drives itself from A to B while I sleep.
    The idea of rowing the gearbox like Ken Block is cool the reality of stop and start traffic with a manual is shit.
    When I bought my Rav4, I wanted two things: I wanted a black car, and I wanted a stickshift. Why the latter? Because that is all I had ever driven my life. I now hate the stick shift and regret that decision. I'm convinced my left leg is 10 percent stronger than my right from working the clutch, and it's not like a Rav4 is some big performance car - it's basically a Corolla SUV. And, I never have liked the clutch in my Rav4.

  5. #95
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    Northern Fur Seal Team Six
    You know, back when I was first getting into guns around 2000, I knew a lot of these survivalist types (the word "prepper" hadn't hit yet, I don't think) who were always into all-manual everything on the grounds that they could theoretically rebuild whatever. I don't know that a manual is any more rebuildable than a TH350, which at the time was still common and I used to be able to pull one in 20 minutes on a hoist, but that's another story.

    Anyway I assumed these guys knew what they were talking about until my dad was caught in a small landslide on the edge of the Similkameen river, which nearly crushed his left leg. He dragged himself up from the riverbank where he'd been fishing and took about a day to get back to his vehicle, which would have had either a TH400 or a 4L60E, I don't remember. But it was a GM automatic and he drove himself back down the trail, to the highway, back down to Vancouver, all the way to the ferry terminal, stayed in his vehicle because he couldn't walk, took the ferry back to Vancouver Island, drove home, told my mom he'd been in an accident and then drove to the hospital. Aside from the depth of my dad's dislike for telephones, one thing I learned from that was that a manual isn't necessarily a better survival machine than an auto.

    Several years later I got a smoking deal on an all-manual F150 4x4. After about a year of owning it, I was in an industrial accident in which a couple of 1/4 mile long sections of train track we were dragging into a tunnel conspired to teach my ankle to impersonate a shoulder joint and rotate in new and exciting planes of motion. I got hauled out of the tunnel on a cart and stuck in an ambulance and taken to the hospital where they figured it would be a day or two before they could get me into surgery, and told me to come back the next morning at 7am, and they'd try to fit me in, and if there wasn't time I could come back the day after at 7am and every day until they had space to get it done. The hospital gave me a set of crutches and my employers gave me a taxi chit to get home and off I went.

    At home, with the percoset wearing off, I realized that my wallet was in my truck. I scrounged up enough change out of the couch cushions to take the bus back to the hospital the next day with Erin helping me hop around on the crutches and they managed to get my leg apart and back together late that afternoon. I took the bus home again, and one of the guys delivered my truck. I was really happy to get the truck back because buses with a floppy or even recently-bolted up leg are no fun...and then I realized I couldn't drive it. Heavy clutch, rough transmission. I spent the next day trying to teach Erin to drive it but no luck; it wasn't easy to drive. I took a few hours to get the skill of rpm-matching down enough that it was drivable without the clutch but getting it going from a stop was really, really difficult.

    These two incidents convinced me that if I am going to have a 4x4 with the assumption that it could be used in some kind of emergency application or gunfight or roadblock ramming or something, I want the red dot, not the irons. For a hobby machine, irons are fun but for fighting I want every advantage. My 4runner is an automatic and that suits me fine.
    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

  6. #96
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    Manuals are for the experience and expertise of driving them. I’d take an auto or cvt any day. A whole lot of people complain about Subarus pre set shit points in the cvt that makes it feel like a traditional auto. Almost all of the subie transmission I have seen that have been nuked would have also been a built th350 700r4 4l60e or the 10 speed gm and Ford tranny that the name escapes me. With the Subaru what you really have is lot of options to beat the fuck out of them. That’s why I sell a shit ton of cv axles for them. Some appropriate tires for reactions in whatever condition you want matched to the car and people go.

    That doesn’t mean they can stop and turn on snow but sure as shit there gonna throw it through that snowbank and mash the gas and stress the driveline out. Most people really just don’t know how to drive and operate there vehicle. There’s a reason why Subaru tells you to shut the traction control off in snow. I’ve talked to many drivers who don’t know that
    Last edited by camel; 12-21-2020 at 07:02 PM.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by vcdgrips View Post
    I would also note that Consumer Reports, a publication that takes no advertising, has ranked all SUVs. 3 of the top are Subarus ( 2, 3, 6.) 1 is the Kia Telluride, 4 is the Hyundai Palisade which is essential the Kia. 5 is the BMW X5.
    So my wife is back into "she needs a new car again" mode. Wants a 3rd row, something bigger than a sedan. Sigh.

    She has owned a Highlander in the past and doesn't want one again for some reason. No 4-runner either. She started looking at newer Honda Pilots and I said something about the Kia Telluride getting a lot of good press.

    ...so now she has her heart set on the Telluride.



    After some research, it seems like the 2020 and 2021 Telluride has won a lot of praise from magazine types. The longterm Edmunds review seems positive, which is my go-to source for reviews:
    https://www.edmunds.com/kia/tellurid...erm-road-test/

    C&D 30k mile review:
    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-maintenance/

    Made in Georgia. It is surprising to me that I/we would even consider a Kia. Looking back, I was in Asia when the Kia Pride first showed up as a cheap/small car. I suppose you could say the same for Honda in the 70s.

    Anyone pull the trigger on a Telluride or any modern Kia? We had an Optima (I think) rental car in 2018 and it was good enough. Still, I am nervous about getting a Kia. The last car that stranded us was a Mini Cooper Countryman though, so things happen.

    Anywho, I am not sure I can sway her at this point. If we get it I can post updates for anyone else interested in a non-Toyota SUV!

  8. #98
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    Forester. Father and my business partner both have 6 cylinder outbacks - and they're great vehicles, but holy crap are they LONG. Forester has the best cabin visibility. 32mpg average out of my 2020 model, and the Forester is the global chassis Subaru has - other vehicles are modified versions of their chassis.

    Girlfriend has a Highlander, which is a bit bigger than the Rav 4, and has a bit more trunk space than the Forester. Doesn't have the visibility, smoothness, or lack of required inputs/controls to get the same level of control on slick roads/mud/etc. as my Forester.

    My new Forester is also cheaper to insure than my previous 10 year old VW, and cheaper than her highlander.

  9. #99
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayrevolver View Post
    SNIP...so now she has her heart set on the Telluride. SNIP
    We have an 11 year old Kia Soul (yes, the Hamster car) with well north of 120K miles on the clock. It is still going strong, and will be my youngest daughter's "graduation present" when she heads off to college in the fall. All we've ever done on it is routine maintenance and changing tires.

    Recently, the older boy needed his first real car, and I insisted he get AWD because of the ice issues we live with 4 months of the year here. We looked at a wide range of vehicles, and ended up getting him into a 2021 Seltos. It's only a little bigger than the Soul, but sits a tiny bit higher. Three months in, and it's been a great ride.

    I've been set on a Telluride since I test drove one in the fall of 2019. The issue now is popularity. The only Kia dealer in town has a $5K OVER MSRP minimum sale price on Tellurides, and he can't get one on the lot, he's just ordering in cars for people literally waiting in line to get one. I've seen dealers in other towns/cities going up to $10K over MSRP, and folks are paying that with no questions.

    Frankly, the Telluride is damn near the best value for the money on the market right now at MSRP, but I'll be dipped in dog shit if I'm paying OVER MSRP for anything on four wheels.

    Maybe availability in your neck of the woods is better. If you can get them at what True Car is saying they SHOULD be selling for, it's really a steal. You can get into a VERY well appointed Telluride (at rational prices) for less than a stripped F150...

    YMMV, and we've only owned two KIAs now, but we couldn't be happier.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    I've been set on a Telluride since I test drove one in the fall of 2019. The issue now is popularity. The only Kia dealer in town has a $5K OVER MSRP minimum sale price on Tellurides, and he can't get one on the lot, he's just ordering in cars for people literally waiting in line to get one. I've seen dealers in other towns/cities going up to $10K over MSRP, and folks are paying that with no questions.
    We have a KIA dealer 45 minutes away. On the top model Telluride they wanted $7,500 over MSRP. That is a big nope and how dare they!

    Wife found what she wanted about 5 hours away in PA. We emailed and called, and got what we wanted for MSRP. Not a penny over. That was last weekend, so we are almost 1 week into ownership. She actually found it using these weird VIN searchs where you put in the options you want, and it shows what dealers got those cars.

    I can IM you a link to a Telluride forum where they post dealers who are not gouging. I am positive you are a few hours from one if you do a search. Some dealers are working "orders" and taking less than MSRP, but the wait is something like 4-6 months, and then the car is delivered to you for a fee, of course.

    Its the first car we (or she, really) have bought without actually really seeing one in real life. I drove it 5 hours home and its impressive for the money, no doubt. The small bonus was getting 2 mpg above the sticker on the trip, even doing 75+ mph for a while.

    To be honest, my biggest fear at this point is the dealer experience. If and when things break I am worried the dealer is going play games etc. Keeping my fingers crossed that all it will need is oil, filters, and Shell 87 octane.

    Pictures don't do this Glacier White paint any justice.

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