A brand new, developing series . . .
A brand new, developing series . . .
David S.
This advice here has become like an axiom, but it is just a dogma. We've enough people on this site who has made it to a decent level, like A/M class, with the dots without taking one RDS specific class. I think it'll serve us well to be critical of that.Originally Posted by RancidSumo
Another thing we should be critical of is the notion that RDS has got to become a total winner over the irons because we all have invested so much time and effort in it. It doesn't. It may become an overall winner in the totality of tasks, but if you're talking just a draw to a large target up close, I still think irons win. Especially when comparing with an RMR with its small window and thick frame.
How long it'll take you is an individual thing. I quit RDS on my first attempt some 10 years ago because it just wasn't happening. I would suggest to re-evaluate the attitude. When I started with the dot again, I wasn't looking to beat the irons on a draw. I was looking to get a reasonably OK draw and be happy with that for the time being, knowing that most other aspects of shooting were made easier with the RDS. That allowed me to stick with it long enough that the draw got decent. That said, I don't see Limited and Production guys struggle against the Open and CO guys [who use much more forgiving optics than RMRs] of similar skill levels when it comes to drawing to wide open targets.
Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.
- So, that is true in all shooting aspects RDS or not, does it help to have a good baseline from a legit instructor yes. However, there are a lot of people who take training classes all the time and still don't improve or are constantly chasing different methods vs. what works for them. A lot of RDS classes out there aren't really focusing on what needs to be focused on in my opinion, but that is my opinion.
The reality of shooting is the fundamentals are the fundamentals no matter sighting system, type of gun, etc. There are some difference such as planes of vision, target focus vs front sight focus (some iron shooters shoot target focus), but most of the difference are more maintenance specific to the gear or in some of the mechanics of running that particular firearm.
Grip, stance, trigger press, or the presentation of the gun from the holster, ready, or from a reload or malfunction clearance all don't care if its a Beretta with fiber sights, a Glock with an RMR, a CZ with an ACRO, an AR15 with a LPVO, or a GP100 with irons.
Where most people suffer on the speed aspect of an RDS equipped pistol is a mix of some focus issues, as GJM said wanting the dot to be still vs painting with the dot, a bad presentation of the gun.
With irons you can steer the pistol on the presentation by the front sight and then put it in the rear notch of the back sight. This is doable and people will cant the muzzle up from a number 3 position (compressed ready, whatever you want to call it). It still isn't a good method and having the gun level and riding it up to you eyes like an escalator is the best method, of course it also requires a good smooth stop of the pistol on final extension during the press out (i.e. coming into the station like a train vs. slamming the brakes). This presentation from 3 to 4 is the should be done the same from the holster, ready, and from a reload or malfunction clearance and can be but each are slightly different in ways.
1. Holster- here we are establishing the strong hand grip upon accessing the pistol, the support hand meets are the #3 and is shored up as we press out.
2. Ready- here the strong hand and support hand grip are already established and are shored up prior to a press out etc.
3. Reload/Malfunction clearance- here for most people we aren't just breaking the support hand grip (to access a magazine, tap rack etc.) but we are breaking the strong hand grip slightly as well to eject the magazine. Also, we are changing the orientation of the gun during this period as well.
So with that the often overlooked aspect is reload/malfunction clearance and when people do focus on it they focus on the aspect of getting the mechanics of the magazine exchange or the malfunction clearance but stop there and don’t really talk about the requisition of grip and then presentation to the target (some instructors do).
They are all equally important and more so with a dot as this is where most people transition suffer. Outside of the draw and ready position its often unworked or talked about in some specific RDS classes. Again this isn’t even just an RDS issue its an all guns issue, hence the whole the first shot is the hardest thing.
So I think where most people struggle with the fast draw to a large target up close is what GJM hit on and wanting a perfectly still dot because the perceived motion of the dot on a RDS is way more than with irons. The reality is the movement is the same it just the shooter is able to perceive it better with a RDS.
This isn’t an equipment issue but a mental issues, and can be overcome with proper practice and understanding. My draw or ready time to a large A zone at 3 yards is not any slower with a RDS at all.
Going back the seek training thing, again very important for laying a good foundation, continued learning etc, but one must put in the practice to solidify it.
So a total winner not but I’m sure most people felt the same about RDS on carbines and it is now the standard base level vs irons. Other sighting options of carbines are not the standards but have advantages etc. There are people who will tell you that you can’t be as fast with an LPVO as a RDS on a carbine, which is also false. It requires understanding the nuance of that sighting system in regards to its use on that firearm.
One of the best things is to have a good training partner or group and amazingly enough structure your practice which is the best method for any activity, sport, etc. you wish to improve you skill in.
I learned more about shooting a red dot fast from Ben Stoeger in one competition class, than I have combined from every other class I have taken, everything else I have watched or read, and certainly everything I have written about dot shooting.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
It does. I do have my own opinion, or even a bias, on the instructor cadre out there, which is the basis of my previous statement, but perhaps it is best to stop here.
What I am seeing is something else. Irons allow you just to throw the gun out on a close target and dot doesn't. Whether draw or transitions, people usually use fairly quick, abrupt and powerful movements to present or move a gun on close targets. The sights, whether dot or irons, get misaligned but that still allows for decent hits, except you always see the irons over that A zone or whatever, and the dot you lose. In addition, the beam projects into a visually smaller dot on a close target.
Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.
What? Are you confusing an RDS with a laser?
I believe he is referring to the visual effect of target distance, as in, the further away the target the more it is obscured by the dot (so conversely it looks smaller up close?)
But I don't know how that translates to slower speed up close... It's not something I've ever perceived.
Nonsense. If you’re target focused, and have normal vision, there’s no apparent change to the dot at any distance. Especially if you’re “painting with the dot” rather than treating it like a Palma sight.
I can't begin to tell you how much shit I confuse in my life. @GJM has given up on keeping me straight.
What did I do wrong this time, used "projects" for something that doesn't leave the glass, or described visual perceptions incorrectly?
Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.
The dot doesn't change, the target does... It gets smaller so more of it is hidden by the dot the further away it is.
Look, I'm just guessing at what YVK meant... I'll leave it to him to follow up.
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