How long did it take for RDS to be faster?

[RancidSumo]

For those of you with a lot of time behind a slide mounted red dot, how long did it take before you started seeing serious improvement/increases in speed over irons?

Recognizing that everyone is different, I'm starting to waiver on the whole concept due to, what feels to me like, very slow progress. I've had a RMR G19 for several months and have put a little over 1000 rounds through it along with a fair amount of dry practice. Starting to get a bit discouraging to see how much faster I still shoot irons with a big orange front sight. I definitely see the advantage in long-distance shooting - I can put shots on steel out at 50-100 yards in a way I know I could never match with irons - but inside 10 yards my first shot is so slow. Inside 5 I have to make myself find the dot because I start getting annoyed with missing it and just rely on all the other mechanics to put the first shot in the 0 blind.

I know what I really need is some professional training, and I am looking to get it as soon as I can, but the experiences of the group and any tips/drills/videos you all have would be appreciated in the meantime.

[beenalongtime]

Interested in the reply's as well as another question.....

For those that use them, is there a range/distance, that you draw and use the co sights, quicker?

And thanks!

[Paul D]

I had to go to the RDS due to a vision problem. I just couldn't accommodate anymore. I first had to learn to focus on the target and anticipate the dot. Second, I really had to practice pressing out the dot to the target. I can't see both the front sight and that target the same time. It took about 2000 rounds and dry practice at home. Now and I am way faster and a lot more accurate 7 yds and beyond. The RDS has actually help me shoot irons better. Instead of letting the target blur and having a sharp focus on the front sight while pressing out; now I just look at the target and the front sight just magically pops into view at the end of my press out. Now my only problem is that I don't practice enough and I'm too fat to be nimble.

[DaBigBR]

I got my first RDS handgun in 2014 or 2015 and used it at the range sporadically as more of a "toy" than anything for the first several years. No idea on the round counts, but nothing more than a few thousand a year. Last Spring (2019), I went to a one day RDS class with Steve Fisher. It got me going on dots a little bit harder. I spent a lot of 2019 shooting 2011s (new platform for me) with optics. This Spring (2020), I did the Sage Dynamics three day RDS instructor class. I have shot probably 90% RDS this year. I am to the point where I am faster with the RDS at all distances. It has taken a lot of rounds and a lot of dry time to get there. I don't have a number of rounds or an amount of time for you because I don't keep track of rounds like some do and I did not fully dive in to RDS pistols until last year.

I think that the Sage class raised the question of how long it took you to learn to shoot well with irons (years for many of us) and how much time we had into dots (months for most of us). It begs the question of why you expect the skills and performance to develop that quickly. My thought for those wanting to really get proficient is to dive into it. Shoot it a lot. Stop shooting irons. Use objective measures to figure out performance. That means taking ten reps of a draw and fire or a bill drill or whatever and figuring out your average every once in a while. Be objective about it.

The other thing that I think a lot of us notice is that refining the draw with an RDS translates very well to irons. I have seen pretty noticeably improvements in initial sight alignment off of the draw with irons after working with an RDS so much because the RDS demands a precision alignment of the lens and the eye. This translates to the irons very well. The lack of precision in the irons means that the inverse is not really true. You can see both sights on the draw so when you are "off", it is easy to work them back into alignment. With the RDS, no dot usually means you have to go looking for it relatively blindly (see tip below).

Two tips for the RDS that are stolen directly from Aaron Cowan:

1) Align the back of the slide (back plate, hammer, whatever) with your nose. Your brain knows where your hands are and where your eyes are. This will give you the dot. This works in every position. Back plate to nose, back plate to nose, back plate to nose. It works.

2) If you can't find the dot, consider where you were moving the gun. If you're a right handed shooter and you are drawing, the dot is probably high and left. We tend to overshoot the mark more than anything else. So when you're training and don't have the dot, think about which way you were moving the gun, and start your search there.

[GJM]

The key to speed is learning to shoot the streak of the dot and not just a steady dot.

[Lon]

I know what I really need is some professional training......

Doing this will make your dot experience much better.

I just finished Modern Samurai Project’s RDS instructor class. The answer to your question was demonstrated many times in class - Speed and accuracy come from efficiency which comes from proper technique.

[Archer1440]

It took me about six months and several thousand dry press presentations in 2017 to get “as fast” as irons under time pressure inside 10 yards. Part of that was replacing some habits built over nearly 30 years of handgunning.

Past 10 yards, my accuracy and times were better pretty early on, but getting that sub-1-second from the holster 3-yard head shot *every time* with an honest ”saw the dot and pressed” took some real effort.

I’m glad I did it, and also found that it didn’t degrade my iron sight work inside 10 yards, either. I can go back and forth with ease. But it did take a lot of work.

My shooting at anything past 25 yards is far superior with the RDS, and was that way from day one.

[GJM]

We may be talking about different things. Some may be thinking “fast” means to shot one on target. That can be solved with dry fire. I am talking about speed on successive shots, and that has to do with how you use the dot. Slowest is a stopped, steady dot. In between is a round dot moving within the scoring zone. Fastest is shooting a streak of dot as it enters the scoring zone.

[Darth_Uno]

It took me about six months and several thousand dry press presentations in 2017 to get “as fast” as irons under time pressure inside 10 yards. Part of that was replacing some habits built over nearly 30 years of handgunning.

Past 10 yards, my accuracy and times were better pretty early on, but getting that sub-1-second from the holster 3-yard head shot *every time* with an honest ”saw the dot and pressed” took some real effort.

I’m glad I did it, and also found that it didn’t degrade my iron sight work inside 10 yards, either. I can go back and forth with ease. But it did take a lot of work.

My shooting at anything past 25 yards is far superior with the RDS, and was that way from day one.

That’s my experience. It just took a ton of dry fire presentations to find the dot quickly.

I saw an immediate and significant improvement in accuracy past 10 yds or so. Also was noticeably faster transitioning to multiple targets at 10+ yds. Once I had the dot I didn’t lose it - it just took a lot of reps to get to where I could obtain it immediately.

It helps to think of your sights like a runway of sorts. Draw and get a normal sight picture, and the dot should just be there. Then focus past the sights, and just use the dot. Do this enough and your brain will figure out what to look for and start skipping the irons and going straight to the dot. An actual instructor can probably explain this much better.

[David S.]

The dot requires a significantly more refined presentation and technique than iron sights, which will come with a bunch of dry practice.

Check out the Modern Samurai Project youtube video series from a couple years ago on RDS technique. It'll get you started in the right direction

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Modern Samurai Project has a RDS class coming up in San Antonio in October. It's currently showing sold out, but with current events as they are, you might contact them as it gets closer and see if anything opens up.

Greig Performance Shooting has a RDS workshop up in Conroe in late September. Doug has worked extensively with @KR Training and graduated from the SIG Sauer Academy RDS Instructor program. Not sure if he's worked with Jedi or not.

Disclosure: I have NO financial affiliation with any body listed above. I've personally trained with MSP a couple times. I know Karl Rehn through the Rangemaster circle, and Rehn endorsed Mr Greig.