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Thread: Having a tough time during qualifications

  1. #1

    Having a tough time during qualifications

    Hey everyone.

    I am a Reserve Deputy and have been disqualified in the past at the range due to my shooting inabilities. No one had the time to work with me so I turned in my badge and went to a department where much more training was offered.

    I received 40 hours of training with my issued Glock 45. I must have gone through 800 rounds during that time.

    No matter what, I would always shoot low and left and score in the 60's. The trainers took me to another part of the range to work with me and I finally scored a 90. Qualifications here are 7/15/25 yards and 50 rounds.

    Ranges are pretty far away and I am not permitted to use their range unless I am qualifying. Ammo is so expensive now. I can't imagine going to the range and pumping out a 1000 rounds to not improve.

    I am right handed, right eye dominant, and shoot low and left. It is so frustrating to get sight picture and sight alignment just to pull that trigger and sometimes shoot the ground. Nothing is more frustrating than taking 30 seconds to pull that trigger and still not have it shoot where I want it to go. It is so frustrating to hear that instructor say "sight picture" "sight alignment" and let them know that is exactly what I did over and over again.

    I started dry firing with Mantis x3 and the thing says that I am doing great...scores consistently in the 90's...but take it to the range and all hell still breaks loose.

    I also have Glock 19 and Glock 17 Umarex Replicas that I shoot in my backyard range. Again....I am a champ at 7/15/25 yards.

    Any pointers here? Qualification is coming again and I don't think they will have as much time to work with me due to cost of ammo these days.

    Sometimes I think that not everyone is destined to shoot, just like not everyone is destined to sprint or run long distance.

    It would be a shame to have to turn my badge in at this agency too.

    I am hoping for open dialogue here. If you suggest it, I have probably already done it. Very frustrating.

    I feel like I am at a disadvantage because I started shooting only about 4 years ago and I am surrounded by folks that have been shooting their whole lives.

    Thanks for your time.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    There are people more qualified than me to answer this online, but I would like to put some things out there.

    If you are able, find a professional instructor not a weekend NRA guy. Someone who can actually diagnose what your issues are and show you how to correct them. I would HIGHLY recommend Steve Fisher of Sentinel Concepts as he was the one got me shooting straight with Glocks. Without knowing your Dept, Many PD instructors don't know how to teach they just read a script.

    If you can't get the time off or do the travel Check out Youtube, specifically Sage Dynamics. Look through his channel for anything about grip and trigger control. Some other good resources on YT are Practically Tactical, Primary & Secondary, modern samurai project, and The Humble marksman (look for his "training dojo/" and "Training diary" videos) Also the Surefire field notes series is good, one that come to mind

    Starting at 3:30 may be the most relevant for you.


    Daily Dryfire is your friend and you can do it at home for free. (Make 100% sure you gun and any mags are empty.) Focus on your grip make sure it is firm and consistent and apply a good trigger press. I have not used the mantis system before, I suspect at least part of what it happening is that in your dry fire you are not gripping hard enough and that is where the issue in live fire is coming up.
    Last edited by Artemas2; 08-14-2020 at 08:38 AM.

  4. #4
    Member That Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kain View Post
    I am right handed, right eye dominant, and shoot low and left. It is so frustrating to get sight picture and sight alignment just to pull that trigger and sometimes shoot the ground. Nothing is more frustrating than taking 30 seconds to pull that trigger and still not have it shoot where I want it to go. It is so frustrating to hear that instructor say "sight picture" "sight alignment" and let them know that is exactly what I did over and over again.

    I started dry firing with Mantis x3 and the thing says that I am doing great...scores consistently in the 90's...but take it to the range and all hell still breaks loose.
    There are much more qualified people here to answer your questions, but while we wait for their replies and having struggled with similar issues myself; to me it sounds pretty clear that sight alignment is not the issue. What you are describing sounds like the classic flinch reaction. One of the usual suggestions for correcting it is dry fire, but as you have discovered there is a difficulty in translating what you do dry to live fire. Taking away some of the blast and flash of live rounds can help you translate that good dry trigger press into live fire. One way to do that is to double your hearing protection, wear both plugs and muffs. Shooting a .22 would in my opinion serve as a good "bridge" between dry and live fire, as there is some recoil but much less than with a service caliber firearm so it's easier to get used to it. With your Glock, try alternating live and dummy rounds in the magazine so your every other trigger press is on a live round, and every other on a dummy one. Focus on a clean trigger press. Dry fire at the range can also be more beneficial than just at home - being at the range with your eyes and ears on may make it feel more similar to live fire. And of course you have the opportunity to switch between dry and live according to the results you are getting.

    Unfortunately, if you have been shooting with a flinch for a longer time, it can take some effort to "de-program" it away. Do not get discouraged if you don't get immediate results. Things will get better with time and reps.

    And if one of the folks who actually knows how to shoot gives you conflicting information to what I wrote, just ignore what I said and listen to them. (Except for the bit about how you can overcome this issue if you just keep working on it. That part is definitely true.)

  5. #5
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    Where are you located, if you don't mind sharing? Some really good folks on the local level can do a one on one lesson. Correcting yourself can be difficult as you cannot see subtle movements and positioning in your grip, etc.

  6. #6
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    To add to what has already been posted:

    As a former LEO, my experience is most PD firearms instructors are not. They may be great shots and, hence, that's how they got the job, but can't effectively teach. You need a PROFESSIONAL instructor to work with you one on one.

    Allow me to armchair quarterback your issues, if I may: Being right handed and right eye dominant, low left misses are the classic flinch pattern. This is a combination of pre-ignition push ( the low) and jerking the trigger (left). Why does this happen when the sights are peachy before the shot?? At the core of it, humans are afraid of loud noises. When something loud happens unexpectedly, our natural reaction is to raise our hands to head level and duck. When we shoot we are voluntarily causing an explosion close to our face, and on the primal level it scares us. Because of this, the natural instinct is to get it over with quickly, so we push the explosion away from ourselves (the push) and Quickly fire the shot while jerking the trigger (the left). I guarantee you that your grip is incorrect as well. Don't feel bad about this, as I shot fairly well for 36 years with a wrong grip(I have my Academy Top Gun trophy to prove that). Seeking out other instruction, I realized this, and spent a month of dry work re-programming myself. Only shooting for 4 years is not detrimental to you as the techniques have been much improved over the 42 years I've been shooting.

    I had a student years ago that was literally hitting the ground in front of the target at 7 yards, and I was able to "fix" her in 30 rounds.
    Seek out a REAL instructor, and I bet you Dollars to Donuts, He or She can have you truly sorted out in short order !

    Also, once fixed, continue training with a professional courses. Add to your training resume. it is the best money you can spend to reinforce good habits and build upon previously developed skills. Hell, it's just the best money you can spend period! Good Luck, and Good Training!

  7. #7
    Most likely a trigger control or grip issue though it could be a flinch too. Glocks are prone to this issue for some folks too. There's a lot of knowledgeable folks here I'm sure will chime in but in the meantime here's a site search for 'low and left':

    https://pistol-forum.com/google.php?...3D12320874&ss=

  8. #8
    The issue is in your head.

    Just put the gun up and shoot - like in your back yard.

    You’ve already shown you are physically able to do this. If dry fire shows youre good, then It’s all mental now.

    To that point extreme amounts of dry fire gives me more bad habits than good. I known I’m an outlier there

    Movey trigger....no movey gun.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BN View Post
    I was going to look for and post the video above. It's very good, pay attention.

    A boat load of info follows in video format. Take some time and watch the videos. As you gain experience behind the gun more and more within the videos will resonate and you will have some Ah-ha moments. You will benefit from watching them multiple times especially as you progress.

    Pay attention to Mike Pannone talking about anticipation and timing.










  10. #10
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Edit became a Quote. Opps!

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