Alphabet punch set to mark SBR lower?

[DMF13]

Lots of ignorance in the post by Sanch, so let's try to correct some of it for people that might be concerned about the very slight chance of getting prosecuted, and the more likely chance of having your property seized for the violation, even if there is no prosecution.

You paid the $250 tax stamp and got the background check.

NFA Tax Stamps are $200 for making or transfer of everything other than an Any Other Weapon (AOW), they are $200 for making an AOW, and $5 for transferring an AOW.

Can they get a jury to convict you to 10 years in prison because you forgot to get it engraved too?

In the federal system juries don't determine the sentence, the judge determines the sentence.

It’s already engraved with the firearm serial number and there’s a digital database linking that serial to you.

The problem is the when you turn a non-NFA firearm into an NFA firearm, you are the manufacturer, and the Form 1 and tax stamp show that information. It's required, and it's a violation of the law to not properly mark the firearm.

For this to be a problem, first you have to have the SBR in public, then you have to piss off a cop who either really knows the engraving laws and is out to get you or is clueless about NFA entirely and is out to get you. Then that cop would have to call the ATF field office who would have to decide over the phone to send an agent, even after they checked the database and confirmed it’s registered to you.

No. In most cases if there is a dispute an agent over the phone can usually ask the local cop to seize the firearm. In many (probably most, if not all) jurisdictions there are laws the prohibit the possession of the same types of firearms that federal law taxes and requires registration under the NFA. In those jurisdictions (most, but not all) create an exception under state law, that if the person can prove it's lawfully possessed under the federal law, then it's legal to possess under state law. If you haven't properly engraved your firearm it's not lawfully possessed under federal law, and now you've got a problem with the feds, and the local or state LE. The ATF agent can then seize the firearm for administrative forfeiture, for the GCA and/or NFA violation (can't remember if the marking requirements are solely a GCA requirement or not, and I'm not going to look it right now).

No prosecution required. Now it's a civil forfeiture case, even if the violation doesn't get prosecuted.

Then that agent would have to show up and instead of giving you a warning suggesting you get it engraved, he decides to jack you up too.

Probably not, as explained above, and an agent can likely get the firearm from local or state LE at a later time/date.

After that, you’d need a USDA willing to file charges and a grand jury willing to bill you and then a jury willing to convict you.

First, you are again showing more ignorance of how the federal government works. The USDA is the US Department of Agriculture. A prosecutor in the federal system is an Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA). Charges in the fed system can come about three ways. Criminal complaint, Grand Jury indictment, or a Filing of Information. Further, to lose the firearm no charges need to be filed. Any violation of the GCA or NFA can result in the firearm being seized "administratively" and then the issue of forfeiture becomes a civil suit. Much like when the feds seize cars, cash, etc, used in drug crimes.

I’d bet not a single person with a legitimate NFA tax stamp has ever actually even been arrested for failing to engrave, let alone convicted.

Are you also willing to bet no one has had their firearms forfeited through the civil process for the violation? I don't know the answer for sure, but I'm comfortable saying the number is something greater than zero.

How about you actually learn the facts before you suggest that people willfully violate federal law?

[DMF13]

The ATF agent can then seize the firearm for administrative forfeiture, for the GCA and/or NFA violation (can't remember if the marking requirements are solely a GCA requirement or not, and I'm not going to look it right now).

I changed my mind and looked it up.

26USC5842 requires the markings.

26USC5861(i) makes it a crime to possess an NFA firearm that is not properly marked.

26USC5871 sets out the potential criminal penalties.

26USC5872 allows for the forfeiture of any firearm involved in any violation. Again, that forfeiture does NOT require a criminal prosecution.

I'll also note that in my earlier post I said in reference to NFA firearms "you are the manufacturer," actually the term manufacturer applies to people engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms. If you are doing it for yourself, and not as a business, you are actually a "maker" and you are "making," not "manufacturing," the firearm.

[whomever]

"Place a sheet of paper or feeler gage on a flat surface and drag a fingernail off the edge. Paper is bout 0.004”. It’s an estimate of “feel” on your text depth."


Metrology question: stamps, the kind you hit with a hammer or the vibrating point kind, displace metal. The metal that used to be below the surface is displaced up as a ridge around the indentation, just like a centerpunch mark, lunar crater, etc.

So when the regs say '.003 deep', is that the plane of the surface to bottom of the mark, or top of the ridge to bottom of the mark? If you have a .002 ridge and a .002 mark, that's .002 measured down from the surface but .004 measured down from the ridge.

When I did my testing and milled it off, I started counting when I hit the surface. The paper/feeler gage method above would seem like it is measuring the height of the ridge and ignoring the indentation, so that's a third way. I honestly don't know which is right; I just wanted to be sure there was no way to measure it that was less then required.

If you are engraving (laser or with a cutter), I think you won't have any appreciable displacement, so the depth would be all below the surface.

Yet another of the fun 'I know I'm being paranoid, but am I being paranoid enough' kind of NFA things :-(


(forgot to mention ... sometimes the black anodizing will come off ... I touched up with black paint)

[mmc45414]

I do not have any engraved stuff, but there is a guy 3mi from my house that does it.

Woukd you have to ship to have it done? If you could drive there and wait i probably wouldn't stamp it yourself.

The local guy will do some neat custom things in the process (Crest of my friends military academy, for example). So maybe making the effort can net out something beyond the letter of the law.


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[BehindBlueI's]

Or instead of worrying about bureaucratic nonsense, you could just not get it engraved.

This is not the sort of forum where we advocate for illegal activity. While you are free to argue what the laws should be, advocating for the practice of breaking the law is outside the rules of this forum.


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[MistWolf]

Would this work? I really don't give a shit if it doesn't look perfect.

https://www.amazon.com/alphabet-punc...abet+punch+set

Yes, it'll work. Stampings will easily be deep enough and if Zoomies can stamp an AR without causing problems, I'm sure, with a bit of practice, a Jarhead can do it too.


I see no reason not to do it. It will drive the Fit & Finish crowd bonkers. If you punch stamp your AR lower, I will send you an official certification, suitable for framing, from Wolf Hollow R&D to mark the achievement

(Electro penciling is tacky- unless it's a Rhodie FAL.)

If you're interested in DYI etching, check out www.dogfightink.com

[Toonces]

"Place a sheet of paper or feeler gage on a flat surface and drag a fingernail off the edge. Paper is bout 0.004”. It’s an estimate of “feel” on your text depth."


Metrology question: stamps, the kind you hit with a hammer or the vibrating point kind, displace metal. The metal that used to be below the surface is displaced up as a ridge around the indentation, just like a centerpunch mark, lunar crater, etc.

So when the regs say '.003 deep', is that the plane of the surface to bottom of the mark, or top of the ridge to bottom of the mark? If you have a .002 ridge and a .002 mark, that's .002 measured down from the surface but .004 measured down from the ridge.

When I did my testing and milled it off, I started counting when I hit the surface. The paper/feeler gage method above would seem like it is measuring the height of the ridge and ignoring the indentation, so that's a third way. I honestly don't know which is right; I just wanted to be sure there was no way to measure it that was less then required.

I wasn't expecting anybody to take my down and dirty method to mean one would try to match the feel of 0.004" paper. If 0.003" is minimum spec, and paper is 0.004", make sure your engraving feels "deeper" than that. I would expect any stamping or engraving to be substantially deeper than the 0.003" required, unless you were trying for a light impression. I would bet this conversation makes some people uncomfortable, as it's not a measured "absolute" thing concerning a SBR/SBS, but that's what professional laser engravers are for. I used https://graylaser.com/firearms-engraving-san-antonio/ on items where I cared about the appearance.

0.003" below the plane would be the safest bet. If they measure with a point on a depth mic they will be measuring from the top of the ridge, unless they stone the surface first. In their lab, I would expect they are measuring with a profilometer, the type you would find in a large production facility that deals with precision parts. Such a machine will definitely show the heights of the peaks and valleys compared to the engraved surface.

[Hambo]

Yes, it'll work. Stampings will easily be deep enough and if Zoomies can stamp an AR without causing problems, I'm sure, with a bit of practice, a Jarhead can do it too.


I see no reason not to do it. It will drive the Fit & Finish crowd bonkers. If you punch stamp your AR lower, I will send you an official certification, suitable for framing, from Wolf Hollow R&D to mark the achievement

Two things. First is that if an armorer cracks a lower, there are hundreds of thousands of spares. Second, in my case, I'd be stamping a lot more characters than a rack number. I admit the risk is small, but in my case I'd have close to 30 chances to fuck things up.

[MistWolf]

Two things. First is that if an armorer cracks a lower, there are hundreds of thousands of spares. Second, in my case, I'd be stamping a lot more characters than a rack number. I admit the risk is small, but in my case I'd have close to 30 chances to fuck things up.

Now you know why John Browning lived in Ogden instead of Minneapolis-Saint Paul

[Hambo]

Now you know why John Browning lived in Ogden instead of Minneapolis-Saint Paul

Things to consider when moving: cities/towns with 3-letter names.