New HK SP5K-PDW

[Hot Sauce]

I’m pretty sure I’ve previously posted about always having wanted an MP5 after watching Die Hard as a kid. Like a few others, the large PDW thread basically cured me of wanting a semi-auto version of an SMG for anything serious, whereas a Sig Rattler sounds more practical. An SP5 would just be a really expensive toy for me so I do wish it was a bit cheaper. Assuming that “assault weapons” are still legal in a couple of pay grades, I might end up picking one of these up.

Cheaper? Listen, HK may like you enough to sell you MP5s.. but they still hate you.

[JRB]

A real eye opener is when you shoot any previous gen open-bolt SMG and then shoot an MP5.

I have a transferable UZI and while I enjoy the hell out of it, there is no comparison to the MP5 at all. The MP5 is so insanely controllable and brought rifle-like single shot accuracy to an SMG form factor.
Literally the only thing about an MP5 that isn't overwhelmingly superior is the detail-strip and cleaning process.

[Balisong]

A real eye opener is when you shoot any previous gen open-bolt SMG and then shoot an MP5.

I have a transferable UZI and while I enjoy the hell out of it, there is no comparison to the MP5 at all. The MP5 is so insanely controllable and brought rifle-like single shot accuracy to an SMG form factor.
Literally the only thing about an MP5 that isn't overwhelmingly superior is the detail-strip and cleaning process.

I would even say post gen SMG. I've shot both the MP5 and the UMP 9mm full auto. For being much more "modern", the UMP felt very clunky and crude. The MP5 felt like a beautifully tuned machine.

[JRB]

I would even say post gen SMG. I've shot both the MP5 and the UMP 9mm full auto. For being much more "modern", the UMP felt very clunky and crude. The MP5 felt like a beautifully tuned machine.

I totally agree. If there's any kind of metric for what dictates a given generation of SMG, the MP5 is at the final level. Modern closed bolt but blowback-operated guns like the UMP would be a distinct step backward for obvious reasons. I got to shoot a mag out of a kit-built postie UMP40 and was similarly underwhelmed by it.

AFAIK the only SMG that may parallel the MP5 in refinement is the Sig MPX, but I haven't had a chance to shoot one of any configuration yet.

[Suvorov]

Reason 5,678,912 why I HAVE to get out of Kalifornia in the spring!

Now the trick will be timing it before Harris ban's them all (God Forbid!).

[TGS]

I totally agree. If there's any kind of metric for what dictates a given generation of SMG, the MP5 is at the final level. Modern closed bolt but blowback-operated guns like the UMP would be a distinct step backward for obvious reasons.

Well, you know, it depends.

I know the UMP gets shit on a lot by Americans (both professional and recreational shooters), but if I was in charge of a police force for a developing nation or even some of the less advantaged western nations, I would 100% pick the UMP9 over the MP5 as a standard SMG for my personnel.

No doubt that the MP5 is the cream of the crop as a professional gunslinger's platform, but the one platform is virtually maintenance free while the other has over 50 "lock" combinations of rollers and springs to be used based on the wear of the individual chassis and selected ammo, lest your gun either batter itself to death or function unreliably.

As genius as Heinrich Vollmer and his successors were in their creations, even the late Jim Schatz (senior HK executive, foremost champion of HK's guns in the world) openly talked about the pitfalls of the roller-locked guns on HKPRO and admitted that the world needed the G36, HK416 and UMP more than it needed the roller series.

[JRB]

Well, you know, it depends.

I know the UMP gets shit on a lot by Americans (both professional and recreational shooters), but if I was in charge of a police force for a developing nation or even some of the less advantaged western nations, I would 100% pick the UMP9 over the MP5 as a standard SMG for my personnel.

No doubt that the MP5 is the cream of the crop as a professional gunslinger's platform, but the one platform is virtually maintenance free while the other has over 50 "lock" combinations of rollers and springs to be used based on the wear of the individual chassis and selected ammo, lest your gun either batter itself to death or function unreliably.

As genius as Heinrich Vollmer and his successors were in their creations, even the late Jim Schatz (senior HK executive, foremost champion of HK's guns in the world) openly talked about the pitfalls of the roller-locked guns on HKPRO and admitted that the world needed the G36, HK416 and UMP more than it needed the roller series.

Totally agreed about the ease of support in a developing nation/etc sort of scenario. That's one of the only things the UZI does better than an MP5 - survive abject neglect.

But the prevalence of the G3 design around the third world as well as the numerous MP5 derivatives made in Turkey, Pakistan, Iran and elsewhere would suggest maintenance is not quite so grim for the long haul, so long as one sticks to a given ammo and attempts to maintain them. That said, if I were outfitting a police force or military I'd buy factory HK UMP's over Turkish or POF MP5 clones any day of the week.

I remember when HKPro was a grey-background website with articles, and no forum.

[TGS]

But the prevalence of the G3 design around the third world as well as the numerous MP5 derivatives made in Turkey, Pakistan, Iran and elsewhere would suggest maintenance is not quite so grim for the long haul, so long as one sticks to a given ammo and attempts to maintain them.

Well, keep in mind that many of the weapons in use by many third world orgs are of limited serviceability and wouldn't pass muster to begin with, and shouldn't be taken as a testament to a given weapon's ruggedness rather than simply being a reflection of what was available in the proverbial "junk bin" of the international arms market....in short, beggars can't be choosers, all that jazz. That, and in undeveloped and developing nations like Pakistan (both POF and MKE make quality MP5s, in reality), the weapons tend to be fired very little. So, you can have 30+ year old MP5s that may have only ever fired a few mags of ammo over its life which tends to be a simpler solution for countries that would rather avoid the expense of both training and maintenance. Not quite proof that the gun will function fine as the round count increases regardless of maintenance...

IIRC, one of the contributing factors to US police agencies switching to AR15 platforms was the abysmal support by HK in the 90s. A not-insignificant number of PDs simply couldn't get parts to keep their MP5s running reliably unless they were a very large customer, and had no other option than to finally give up and buy a COTS.

I think Jim Schatz had a very good read on the situation when he used to talk about the roller locked guns being quite a chore to keep running on an agency level.

I remember when HKPro was a grey-background website with articles, and no forum.

If you ever watch any youtube videos from Machinegun Mike and the sequence of how he fires the various guns with 3 rounds semi, 3 bursts, and then dumping the remaining mag, it's very obvious where he spent time as a kid on the interwebs...

[JRB]

....So, you can have 30+ year old MP5s that may have only ever fired a few mags of ammo over its life which tends to be a simpler solution for countries that would rather avoid the expense of both training and maintenance. Not quite proof that the gun will function fine as the round count increases regardless of maintenance...

Considering the host-nation L1A1's and M16A2's that I got to examine overseas, I think you're right about the round counts and have a very compelling point here. Lots of handling wear with basically pristine bolts and barrels, every one. Training was abysmal by P-F standards, and pretty weak even by US Army standards. I would have loved to take one of those L1A1's home though.

IIRC, one of the contributing factors to US police agencies switching to AR15 platforms was the abysmal support by HK in the 90s. A not-insignificant number of PDs simply couldn't get parts to keep their MP5s running reliably unless they were a very large customer, and had no other option than to finally give up and buy a COTS.

I think Jim Schatz had a very good read on the situation when he used to talk about the roller locked guns being quite a chore to keep running on an agency level.

If you ever watch any youtube videos from Machinegun Mike and the sequence of how he fires the various guns with 3 rounds semi, 3 bursts, and then dumping the remaining mag, it's very obvious where he spent time as a kid on the interwebs...

My understanding was the move from HK was a combination of the '89 and '94 bans complicating imported guns/parts combined with the lack of HK USA support. In some cases that was the same problem, in other cases it wasn't ala HK's classic 'you suck and we hate you' attitude toward smaller buyers. I do know a lot of ex military M16A1's and A2's ended up in PD arms rooms and Colt did brisk business making AR15's in weird LE contract combinations.

[RAM Engineer]

Anybody have good intel on actual, operational use of MP5K or MP5K-PDW guns? Who bought them, used them, and how were they employed vs the full-size and the SD versions?