Grip, trigger control and trigger speed

[GJM]

Grip is a funny thing because it’s so ridiculously subjective. We don’t yet have an objective way to really measure it, we have to do everything by feel. When we were new shooters we definitely needed to grip the pistol harder because we simply weren’t supporting the gun enough. As we figure stuff out, we become adept at gripping enough. What was “gripping hard” before is now simply “Tuesday’s dryfire session”. Cluster and GJM are totally right, there’s a point where gripping harder simply doesn’t do anything for you and begins to hinder you.

I’ve played with different grip pressures and it’s interesting. I’ve found that I typically WAY over grip with my strong hand. In relaxing just the strong hand it’s absolutely mind blowing to me how relaxed that hand can be while still getting good hits at speed. My support hand still needs to maintain pretty stout pressure, but not quite so much as I once thought.

This is where immobilizing your wrists becomes key. I say immobilizing instead of “locking” your wrists because, as humans, we can’t actually mechanically lock our joints like other animals can. This is where I’m at currently in figuring out how to do this in a consistent and repeatable manner. If I can figure out how to do this, it’ll be really interesting to see how much I can relax behind the gun.

Another step in this whole deal that I’ve heard other high level shooters talk about is implementing some sort of push-pull dynamic, but from a modern thumbs forward isosceles grip. Shooters like Eric Grauffel and Hwansik Kim. I’ve tried this before, but with not much success.

I think there is a very simple, albeit indirect way, of measuring grip force — vary grip force and see what the shot timer says.

So, like, how much more are you allowing the pistol to move now vs when you were keeping it flatter yet slower?

Beats me, muzzle movement is very subjective. I guess I could try to video before and after, but I am not sure to what end. Fastest, accurate splits is what I am after, and how much the muzzle rises seems almost irrelevant.

[spinmove_]

I think there is a very simple, albeit indirect way, of measuring grip force — vary grip force and see what the shot timer says.



Beats me, muzzle movement is very subjective. I guess I could try to video before and after, but I am not sure to what end. Fastest, accurate splits is what I am after, and how much the muzzle rises seems almost irrelevant.

Yeah, the shot timer is indeed King. And I agree that’s it’s not actually the level of muzzle rise/flip that I should be concerned with so much as the actual time and accuracy. The problem is that, because I’ve been chasing the ability to make the gun track flatter for so long that accepting less than what I’ve been striving for is difficult for me to accept. I know I know, cue the “just get over it, embrace the recoil, and trust the objective data”. Easier said than done. Especially during an ammo shortage.

Trying to figure some of this stuff out purely in dryfire between matches ain’t exactly easy. I might need to consider foregoing a match or two here and there so that I can get some legit practice in to figure it out.

[GJM]

Yeah, the shot timer is indeed King. And I agree that’s it’s not actually the level of muzzle rise/flip that I should be concerned with so much as the actual time and accuracy. The problem is that, because I’ve been chasing the ability to make the gun track flatter for so long that accepting less than what I’ve been striving for is difficult for me to accept. I know I know, cue the “just get over it, embrace the recoil, and trust the objective data”. Easier said than done. Especially during an ammo shortage.

Trying to figure some of this stuff out purely in dryfire between matches ain’t exactly easy. I might need to consider foregoing a match or two here and there so that I can get some legit practice in to figure it out.

Dry fire is awesome for so many things, but I think you need to live fire to figure this out. Once you sort it out, dry fire to burn it in, with frequent live fire to confirm that your dry fire and live fire agree.

[Clusterfrack]

“You never know when you’re going to have recoil, and I like to be prepared for that with recoil springs. Better safe than sorry.” —Ben Stoeger 7/2020 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...er/id641400652

I may have to put that in my signature line...

Yeah, the shot timer is indeed King. And I agree that’s it’s not actually the level of muzzle rise/flip that I should be concerned with so much as the actual time and accuracy. The problem is that, because I’ve been chasing the ability to make the gun track flatter for so long that accepting less than what I’ve been striving for is difficult for me to accept. I know I know, cue the “just get over it, embrace the recoil, and trust the objective data”. Easier said than done. Especially during an ammo shortage.

Trying to figure some of this stuff out purely in dryfire between matches ain’t exactly easy. I might need to consider foregoing a match or two here and there so that I can get some legit practice in to figure it out.

[Robinson]

I think that for new shooters they need to practice getting a really strong grip on the gun because it doesn't come naturally. It's important to get used to having not only a proper grip but also a strong grip on the gun in order to shoot consistently and recover from recoil. I know that if I start allowing my grip to relax during a shooting session it negatively affects my shots.

The nuances of grip and other elements of shooting technique are things that more advanced shooters like many of you guys here explore once solid technique and a level of shooting skill have been achieved. For people learning how to shoot and people more at my level, I think Mr. Seeklander's video on grip is an excellent example of the right thing to do.

[ER_STL]

@GJM, I've come to appreciate a lot of your posts and I enjoy this thread. I'll say that since joining Ben Stoeger's site recently, I've come to realize that I agree with just about everything for which he advocates when it comes to shooting. His thoughts on grip, trigger control, recoil management, sights, etc are spot on as far as I can tell. I need to find a way to host him out my way for a class some time in the future.

[Clusterfrack]

Another step in this whole deal that I’ve heard other high level shooters talk about is implementing some sort of push-pull dynamic, but from a modern thumbs forward isosceles grip. Shooters like Eric Grauffel and Hwansik Kim. I’ve tried this before, but with not much success.

I don’t think Hwansik does this?

But in any case, I strongly dislike any technique that unbalances my arms, or adds unnecessary tension.

[45dotACP]

One thing I picked up from a class with Tim Herron was that my grip was incredibly inconsistent. That was seperate from how strong I was gripping the gun. Rather it was the way I built my grip.

Silly as it sounds, he showed me the whole "Judy chop" move and said "build your grip this way always. After a reload, after a draw, after you pick the gun up from the table. Every time the hands seperate"

Just that alone was enough to vastly improve my shooting. Better repeatability means a more consistent baseline. From that baseline, you build things like tracking your sights, which is the key to shooting accurately at speed.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[spinmove_]

I don’t think Hwansik does this?

But in any case, I strongly dislike any technique that unbalances my arms, or adds unnecessary tension.

He mentions in a grip technique video where he doesn’t exert side to side pressure with his support hand so much as pushes back into the front strap of the grip and add pressure with his fingers. His strong hand obviously is gripping front to back as well. IIRC he then goes to to describe it as a “push/pull” from the standpoint of the support hand pulling and maintaining the guns place in space with his strong hand as a push.

I’ll have to look around and see if I can find it again. I’m not part of PSTG right now, but I’m pretty sure it’s a video he put up there as well as made it available for purchase separately through vimeo or some other platform.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, I do remember that now.

I’m not doing that.