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Thread: Thumb conundrum

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    Just keep in mind that Bob Vogel teaches Bob Vogel’s grip which typically works for Bob Vogel and a select few people. Great dude and he’s got an awesome grip, but his specific technique is difficult to execute consistently for a lot of people.
    I attended a Vogel course and took a lot away from it. IMO he's pretty good at spotting things and communicating why he thinks it's a problem and then the fix. My only complaint would be that I thought the class I attended (World Class Pistol Skills) had a few too many students. The upside was he ran each drill for enough reps that he observed and coached each shooter who needed it.

    With that being said, the biggest take away for me was his nuances of gripping the pistol. With his explanation and coaching I don't think the concepts are particularly hard to grasp and execute. Of course the shooter needs to put the final polish on the whole deal by practicing.

    I think that the whole 'Captains of Crush' emphasis he places on grip strength is off-putting to some people, but you have to admit, it works for him.

    I would gladly attend another training class with him.

  2. #22
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    I think that the whole 'Captains of Crush' emphasis he places on grip strength is off-putting to some people, but you have to admit, it works for him.
    I have a few questions for Mr. Vogel.

    How would his performance change if he didn’t grip so hard?

    Why does he teach people to grip so hard? What exactly is the advantage?

    Lots of top shooters do not grip so hard, yet place near or ahead of him in matches. How can they do that if a super strong grip is such an advantage?

    Given that hundreds or more now have injuries caused by overgripping, does he still think it’s a good technique?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  3. #23
    Vogel is effectively retired, yet he popped into the Nats and came within like few points from a second place, shooting a polymer gun against all-steel competition. I wouldn't use current match placement as any sort of evidence to technique's validity.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The thumbs forward grip is a two handed grip for semi auto pistols. As noted it is better described as the "pronated wrist" grip since proper execution of this grip involves minimizing use of the thumbs, whether they point forward, flag up etc.

    Shooting revolvers and one handed shooting are separate topics.

    The issue with using the old locked down thumb grip for two handed shooting semi auto pistols is the locked down thumb creates a a gap and weak point in the grip. It is an 80% solution. That may be "good enough" or it may not. I'm not willing to leave that performance on the table.

    Recoil is like water and will take the path of least resistance. If you give it a gap, it will take that gap. Think about gripping a water balloon with both grips and what it would look like.

    re: interference with the slide stop, it is a matter of the individual interface between the gun, your hands, and your grip. You pressure test it buy shooting under time pressure and adjust as necessary. Some platforms may not work with your hands or your grip. With a proper, high, thumbs forward grip I often do not get lock back on my duty G17. However, it is the grip that gives me the best performance. With 18 rounds in the gun I'll take that performance bump over slide lock back. Other solutions to this could be modified parts (in my case the Kagwerks Glock Slide stop) or changing platforms.

    There is not one perfect solution for everything. The best performance comes with dedicated work on one make and model of gun, second best (and more common) is dedicated work on one "family" of guns i.e. all Glocks, all 1911s, all S&W M&Ps etc. or similar guns from different makers such as all Striker fired or all TDA guns.
    The bold/underlined sentence rings so true too me. This is maybe a more minor issue with 9mm, 45 acp, but "to me", it becomes a major issue with hard recoiling revolvers (after years of locked thumb grip with semi's) where I see large differences in control with various grip types and I've experimented far and wide in gripping a 329PD. Once I saw/realized that "gap" and eliminated it in hard (or maybe better defined as very fast) recoiling revos, it translated extremely well to semiautos.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTMcC View Post
    The bold/underlined sentence rings so true too me. This is maybe a more minor issue with 9mm, 45 acp, but "to me", it becomes a major issue with hard recoiling revolvers (after years of locked thumb grip with semi's) where I see large differences in control with various grip types and I've experimented far and wide in gripping a 329PD. Once I saw/realized that "gap" and eliminated it in hard (or maybe better defined as very fast) recoiling revos, it translated extremely well to semiautos.
    There are also some differences between how our hands interface with revolver grips vs semi auto grips which make the locked down thumb work better with revolvers.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I have a few questions for Mr. Vogel.

    How would his performance change if he didn’t grip so hard?

    Why does he teach people to grip so hard? What exactly is the advantage?

    Lots of top shooters do not grip so hard, yet place near or ahead of him in matches. How can they do that if a super strong grip is such an advantage?

    Given that hundreds or more now have injuries caused by overgripping, does he still think it’s a good technique?
    Those are legit questions only Vogel could answer. My take:

    1. I don't know he still has the trigger control and sight index thing going for him.

    2. It works for him? I'd think the advantage of being able to hold the pistol essentially immobile during the firing cycle is pretty self-evident.

    3. Different approaches to the game.

    4. Vogel is not/was not alone in stressing grip strength. As I mentioned it worked for him.

    My take on Vogel from watching him in class was that he probably grew up 'farm boy strong' he's not particularly big but he's solid; added to that he's fast - speaking in terms of movement - and precise, almost mechanical.

    I learned a lot from him, didn't go all Captains of Crush as a result, but I did get a set of pretty good grippers at a GNC store and began a regime of grip strength training. Whereupon I gave myself tendonitis so freaking bad.

    Now I just settle for reminding myself 'pinch' as I'm establishing master grip and 'squeeze' as I establish support hand grip. Generally if I remember that I do 'okay' for me, anyways.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca10 View Post
    I'm new here, so try not to roast me too much.

    Here's the background to my question. A few years ago, I started trying to get better at shooting as opposed to just acquiring firearms. At that point, I started shooting one centerfire handgun (an HK P30) about 95 percent of the time that I shot centerfire instead of switching between firearms. In the past year, I have been dry firing two to four times a week. Fairly recently, I bought Stay in the Fight by Kyle Lamb at the recommendation of a friend who has extensive experience with firearms, including several tours of duty.

    Here's where the trouble starts. Lamb recommends a thumbs-forward grip and has some great illustrations to accompany just what he means. Given that Lamb has more experience with firearms in a month of his life than I will have in the entire course of mine, I changed my grip from a support-hand-thumb-over-trigger-hand-thumb grip to the thumbs-forward grip. I have been practicing with it for a few weeks.

    Now, I have not had a chance to go to the range with live ammunition yet to see what I think of the thumbs-forward grip. However, in practice with Snap Caps, I find it quite uncomfortable compared to the way that I usually grip my P30. I see a couple of ways of viewing my experience so far:

    1. I just need more time to acclimate myself to the new grip. Thus far, I have spent about two hours with the thumbs-forward grip in the basement. Once I practice more extensively with it, I'll be a better shooter.

    2. That grip just does not work for me, and rather than try and completely change my grip, I ought to continue with what seems to be working for me and work on building other skills from there.

    I should probably specify that I am not interested in competition shooting or shooting pretty touching groups. I'm interested in reasonable accuracy at reasonable speed for self-defense purposes (my current benchmark that I use to measure my progress is the FBI qualification test). Obviously, those terms are open to interpretation, but that's a rough description of why I am shooting handguns.

    So, any thoughts? Is the thumbs-forward grip essential to becoming a competent defensive shooter? Or should I focus my time and energy elsewhere?

    Thank you in advance.
    I shoot some auto-pistols thumbs-forward, some with thumbs locked-downward, and some with hybridized positions, simply because not all weapons fit my thumbs in the same way. In one case, with my favored pocket pistol, thumbs-forward could get my support-hand thumb in the line of fire.

    In the case of Glocks, no thumb position works really well, for all generations and frame widths, and so I struggle, eternally. COVID has side-lined my Glocks, anyway, as I do not feel confident carrying Glocks, if I cannot train regularly.

    In the case of 1911 pistols, thumbs-forward works well, for me. I also used thumbs-forward with SIG P229 pistols, from 2004-2015. (I got away from SIG, and .40 S&W, due to the high bore axis, which is a factor in muzzle flip, as my right thumb/wrist arthritis got worse.)

    With revolvers, I shoot thumbs tucked-downward. This keeps my thumbs clear of the cylinder, and fits best, with most of my revolvers. (I burned a finger-tip, once upon a time, with a Speed Six, so know that some revolvers, at least, will torch-cut anything that gets too close to the barrel-cylinder gap.)

    So, I am defaulting top thumbs-forward, with the 1911, and thumbs-down, with pocket pistols and revolving pistols.

    My background is LE/practical/tactical. The few competitions I shot, long ago, could be considered similar to IDPA, but even less game-ified.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  8. #28

    January 2021 update

    I thought that I would update the thread. I read all of the posts on the thread and watched the videos. Adjusting to the thumbs-forward grip wasn't as hard as I thought. I tried shooting a FAST test about a month ago, and I shot 9.02 seconds, which would have been 7.02 if I hadn't slightly pulled the second shot. That's decent for me. Thanks to all for the advice.

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